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Post by Son Pan on Jul 20, 2017 5:29:02 GMT
One thing I hope this manga does is not tease Mr. Buu being a competitor. Just drop the pretense and get Freeza from the get go. Don't forget the other Super Saiyans in Universe 6 and how they got their forms. Yes. I would much prefer they are already Super Saiyans. Ideally I think Caba should have been a Super Saiyan before he met Vegeta and Vegeta just taught him how to go SS2. That way it might feel better for U6 Saiyans getting higher SS levels. That ship sailed so it might be better to skip them getting the forms and just say Cabba trained them and they got SS.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jul 20, 2017 5:40:42 GMT
Don't forget the other Super Saiyans in Universe 6 and how they got their forms. Yes. I would much prefer they are already Super Saiyans. Ideally I think Caba should have been a Super Saiyan before he met Vegeta and Vegeta just taught him how to go SS2. That way it might feel better for U6 Saiyans getting higher SS levels. That ship sailed so it might be better to skip them getting the forms and just say Cabba trained them and they got SS. I just realized something. Technically they never showed Frieza in his Golden form in the manga. Seeeeeeriously hoping they fix the "how to fix stamina drainage by thinking really hard" crap. Omitting the specifics of the training (Cabba or Frieza) is certainly a better route than a pathetic route as the Anime has depicted.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 20, 2017 5:45:27 GMT
One thing I hope this manga does is not tease Mr. Buu being a competitor. Just drop the pretense and get Freeza from the get go. Hopefully, yeah. Then again we had to sit through Goku klutzing up the Mafuba in the manga long after we knew he'd klutz it up thanks to the anime, so I'm not TOO hopeful they'll go through the whole Buu fiasco.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 20, 2017 5:48:17 GMT
Yes. I would much prefer they are already Super Saiyans. Ideally I think Caba should have been a Super Saiyan before he met Vegeta and Vegeta just taught him how to go SS2. That way it might feel better for U6 Saiyans getting higher SS levels. That ship sailed so it might be better to skip them getting the forms and just say Cabba trained them and they got SS. I just realized something. Technically they never showed Frieza in his Golden form in the manga. Seeeeeeriously hoping they fix the "how to fix stamina drainage by thinking really hard" crap. Omitting the specifics of the training (Cabba or Frieza) is certainly a better route than a pathetic route as the Anime has depicted. I don't think it's entirely unprecedented to be honest. Half the time Piccolo's training consists of just floating in the air sleeping meditating, so Frieza, who has literally nothing else to do during his torture, fully committing himself to the same mental exercises would likely have similar results as Piccolo. Better results probably, because OMG PRODIGY GUYZ.
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Post by Teh Jammah on Jul 20, 2017 13:30:06 GMT
One thing I hope this manga does is not tease Mr. Buu being a competitor. Just drop the pretense and get Freeza from the get go. Hopefully, yeah. Then again we had to sit through Goku klutzing up the Mafuba in the manga long after we knew he'd klutz it up thanks to the anime, so I'm not TOO hopeful they'll go through the whole Buu fiasco. Manga was nowhere near as bad as the anime though. I'll take 'Goku was in a rush so grabbed the closest thing that looked like the sealing tag and on top of that had been up all night (or at elast that's what's implied) mastering the Mafuba so was probably half asleep as well' over 'Goku forgot to grab anything, was even more of a forgetful twat and then left the pot in the time machine so it got smashed, and then didn't even use the fucking mafuba himself despite having spent hours training to use it, meaning that Trunks had to learn it from a fucking youtube video' any day of the week. One minor mistake that arguably anyone could make (especially if he had indeed pulled an all-nighter) is nowhere near as hard a pill to swallow as the paint-chip-eating brain-dead stupidity of Anime-Goku
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Jul 20, 2017 13:37:32 GMT
Just skip the training part like the Revival of F arc. Or, just show the other saiyans as Super Saiyans directly during the ToP. Where through exposition we get the idea of how they trained OR a small panel for flashback Or training montage?
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Post by Axalon on Jul 20, 2017 22:01:58 GMT
Hopefully, yeah. Then again we had to sit through Goku klutzing up the Mafuba in the manga long after we knew he'd klutz it up thanks to the anime, so I'm not TOO hopeful they'll go through the whole Buu fiasco. Manga was nowhere near as bad as the anime though. I'll take 'Goku was in a rush so grabbed the closest thing that looked like the sealing tag and on top of that had been up all night (or at elast that's what's implied) mastering the Mafuba so was probably half asleep as well' over 'Goku forgot to grab anything, was even more of a forgetful twat and then left the pot in the time machine so it got smashed, and then didn't even use the fucking mafuba himself despite having spent hours training to use it, meaning that Trunks had to learn it from a fucking youtube video' any day of the week. One minor mistake that arguably anyone could make (especially if he had indeed pulled an all-nighter) is nowhere near as hard a pill to swallow as the paint-chip-eating brain-dead stupidity of Anime-Goku I'd have preferred Goku not thinking of the Mafuba at all and just worked on mastering Super Saiyan Blue as he demonstrated in the fight against Fusion Zamasu, but I guess Toriyama really liked that particular joke.
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Post by Teh Jammah on Jul 21, 2017 11:01:37 GMT
Eh, I'm not entirely convinced it was just done for the lulz. Goku knowing how to use the Mafuba feels like a Chekhov's Gun that hasn't actually been fired yet.
I could well be wrong and AT is just trolling us, but the Mafuba could well be Super's equivilent of the Genkidama. I mean it's the technique for sealing all-powerful evil in cans - seems like the perfect thing for sealing away an otherwise unbeatable evil Zeno/Daishinkan/etc.
In fact, if they're not retconning EoZ, Goku and Vegeta using all their god ki to charge up an all-powerful Godly Mafuba to seal the ultimate big bad away (with the consequence of it losing their ability to use SSG/SSB ever again), would be a heck of a way to bring things around to how they were circa EoZ.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 21, 2017 11:46:50 GMT
Eh, I'm not entirely convinced it was just done for the lulz. Goku knowing how to use the Mafuba feels like a Chekhov's Gun that hasn't actually been fired yet. I could well be wrong and AT is just trolling us, but the Mafuba could well be Super's equivilent of the Genkidama. I mean it's the technique for sealing all-powerful evil in cans - seems like the perfect thing for sealing away an otherwise unbeatable evil Zeno/Daishinkan/etc. In fact, if they're not retconning EoZ, Goku and Vegeta using all their god ki to charge up an all-powerful Godly Mafuba to seal the ultimate big bad away (with the consequence of it losing their ability to use SSG/SSB ever again), would be a heck of a way to bring things around to how they were circa EoZ. As much as I'd love it to be a smoking gun, I have doubts about it. It'd require some planning ahead which Toriyama...doesn't do a whole lot of.
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Jul 21, 2017 16:57:08 GMT
So the ship is on a sea of whims.
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Post by Azoth on Jul 21, 2017 19:15:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2017 19:28:30 GMT
Poor pillaf having a freaking crisis at the end there.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jul 21, 2017 20:28:21 GMT
I swear to Kami I was going to write Fusion Zamasu going back in time to increase tension in my DBS Fic, but now the manga beat me to it. (If don't believe me, ask Xeno Black ) Full summary in a bit.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 21, 2017 20:57:23 GMT
I hate this, but Trunks should have stayed behind to fight Zamasu Black. Think about it, even if it buys them a few minutes by the time Goku and Vegeta get back they could be healed by Kibito or if need be go to Dende to heal them. They are back at full power and can use the potara again so by the time Zamasu followed them he would be overpowered again. There is Beerus waiting the wing too. We know he would get involved since Zamasu is disrupting the balance. It felt like there was no real tension since Zamasu was only a threat because there was no god of destruction to interfere. Also I think Trunks should have died too. That would have had some emotional impact and Trunks being gone along with the rest of universe does fit the story. Like 16's permanent death it would be remembered well.
This ending just is weird to me. It's neither happy like DB where Trunks saved his timeline and used Super Dragon Balls to restore everything nor is it that tragic ending you expect with a universe being destroyed and the last hero sacrifices himself to save the rest of the multiverse from suffering the same fate. It tried to have both and failed to really deliver for me. If Trunks is fine with living a parallel world with another Trunks in it I don't see why he can't live in the main universe where has even more friends and family. Gohan is alive in this universe and has a family. Potentially Trunks could be to Pan what Gohan was to him. Gohan and Dark Timeline Trunks would make a damn good team at the Tournament of Power, being anti-Goku and anti-Vegeta, by actually being pragmatic and working well as team. They would probably learn fusion from Main Trunks and Goten and bust it out at the tournament to ensure a win while their dads would be all like well it is less fun that way.
All in all a decent ending to this arc. I had problems with it overall. Zamasu is just a typical Dragon Ball villain who was trying to be more complex and morally gray villain. Worse yet his threat was tied to a timeline that was deemed expendable and never a threat to our heroes. In fact most of the problems this arc had was Goku and Vegeta being stupid to create tension, such as refusing to fuse or needlessly trying to sacrifice themselves here rather than go home with everyone else, get healed, and then fight Zamasu again to defeat and seal him. The manga couldn't save this arc.
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Post by Ashanark on Jul 21, 2017 21:23:18 GMT
I forgot to read Chapter 25, so some thoughts will apply to that as well as Chapter 26.
General -- One thing I've noticed about the manga is that it seems like Dragon Ball Z, not Dragon Ball Super. Maybe it's the artstyle, maybe it's the way they fight, but it seems more a continuation of Z than its own series. The combat's more gritty, the punches have more weight, it's less cartoony, the characters are more muscular. (Trunks looked huge these past two chapters.) -- To continue on that thought, the manga is just better than the anime. I'm not sure if that's because there's only one mind writing it, instead of many (presumably it's just Toyotaro). Things are a bit more focused, a bit more coherent. Interactions are more meaningful.
Specific -- I like the grown-up version of Dr. Brief's little black cat. -- I thought it was really neat, bringing up the mortal in Universe 12 who developed a time machine, and Zamasu wanting to use that to go to the past. I don't think the anime ever mentioned it, and it added slightly more stakes to the situation. Very interesting in hindsight, now that we know Universe 12 is one of the four "safe" universes. -- The time ring's vanished, so apparently Zeno did do a total wipeout of Trunks' timeline? -- Grand Priest seems much less suspicious in the manga. I like seeing him and Whis interact. -- Do you think the method Whis was going to use against immortal Zamasu is going to crop up in the future? A Super-Mafuba? Maybe in the ToP? -- Gohan showing up to bid farewell to Trunks was an anime-only thing, it seems. If Toriyama forgot Gohan in the outline for Zamasu, then I have little hope Gohan will do anything relevant for the ToP.
Overview So, the Zamasu saga, the first "serious" arc of Super, is now done in the manga as well as the anime. In hindsight...well, Toyotaro did his best, but it's become clear that the main person to blame for the arc's problems is Toriyama. As far as we know, both Toyotaro and Toei got the same outline, so the things that are consistent between the two are Toriyama's ideas.
Things like the potara retcon, Mafuba fakeout, Zamasu's flaws, and lack of tension have been discussed a lot on this forum. I guess, what I want to say, is that there was a sense of staleness in this arc. On the whole I like the manga's version more than the anime's, but the entire thing just seemed very repetitive: -- Vegeta beats up Black. Black and Zamasu fuse. -- Goku and Vegeta fight Fused Zamasu, but it doesn't work. -- Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegito, but it doesn't work. -- Goku uses his mastered SSB to fight Zamasu, but it doesn't work. -- Vegeta blasts Fused Zamasu, but it doesn't work. -- Goku pushes the button. It feels like filler. The manga's situation seemed more desperate, since Goku and Vegeta were more damaged and couldn't even go Super Saiyan--and I like the nice little bonding moment they had as they faced the end--but even so, there wasn't anything in this arc I hadn't seen before in DBZ. Goku and Vegeta staring down the Merged Zamasus was a recycle of fighting Metal Cooler. Zamasu's death scene was a rehash of Cell's. I'm not really certain what territory Dragon Ball could explore that hasn't been done to death a million times by now, but even though Toyotaro's created a product with a good DBZ feel to it, I felt like I was watching the best parts of various films and sagas getting smushed together. There was just this yearning to see something different as I read this chapter.
I can look at the fights and say "Dang, Toyotaro did a good job." And his artwork is always amazing. But this whole saga is still just kind of a "meh" to me.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jul 21, 2017 22:50:01 GMT
I don't know what this ending is, but it sounds disappointing. Spoiler tags for space reasons. Pros (Mostly Funny Shit, not much postives tbh): -Somebody's been watching "The Return of Cooler." That staredown into an entire army of the unbeatable says something about Goku and Vegeta that they're a couple of idiots. -Goku's last wish to fight as a Super Saiyan kinda cracked me for some reason -Also cracking me up is how Zeno fell to the ground while in the anime he floated down. -Literally panels of nothing. LOL -Confirmed, Zeno Erased the entire Timeline. Interesting, so does that mean Time is a "super-class" of Multiverse?... wait, no, later Goku said "Entire Universe." God damn this shit is annoying. -Grand Priest is chill, not some evil mastermind. Why can't everything else be simple in the Goku Black saga? -Goku called himself out for not being smart... most of the times.... outside of fighting. -Mai trolling Pilaf. Nuff Said.
Cons: -So how did Trunks in the Anime get to the conclusion of "He's the savior of his world, he needs to fight Zamasu!" I agree with Son Pan, Trunks not partaking in the battle is a letdown... wait, this entire time was literally Black and Zamasu Vs Goku and Vegeta. (Trunk's healing not counting.) -While I'm glad they kept the Time Machine in Universe 12 line an actual "plot point" (honestly should learn mah TV Tropes by now), Zamasu didn't even use it, so why bring it up? I feel like they should have written the Time Ring to malfunction bc of A. Black was from the present time of another timeline and B. Present and Future beings merge together, the ring is unsure who is from when. Also, why did Zamasu wait until "now" to "use" the time machine? Why didn't he erase them from the beginning of his Zero Mortals Plan? -I don't like how the Manga had Goku suggest the erasure idea to Zeno. It just fuels the theories of Goku not caring about life. -So no longer are we "forced" to travel between alternate timelines via "17 year" link but changing frequencies can allow them to go to a different timeline... Fuck this shit, just let the two of them stay in this world as a retired couple or something. -Did Beerus lie about being unable to "kill Gods" as in it's a technical lie bc he can "Hakai" them or did he just say that to shut Goku up? -Whis' bag just looks like a "Godly Mafuba!!!" I thought the manga would shed light on this ability Whis can do... what a let down.
I know this chapter was necessary to tie up the Goku Black saga but it could've been less pages and merged with the last chapter so we can get a move on to the ToP. All I can say is THANK KAMI the Goku Black saga is over... now to speculate how many chapters will the ToP take... Oh Fuck.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 22, 2017 1:28:05 GMT
PRAISE KAMI IT'S OVER. FINALLY. I'm really glad this entire arc is over. It felt so. freaking. LONG. It was like Frieza's 5 Minutes all over again. Both the anime and the manga just had weird parts to it even when they diverged from Toriyama's questionable outline. - I am disappointed though that Trunks was a cheerleader for his own arc and was basically turned into Dende. Oh how far he's fallen. - He didn't even get the same epic fistbump of strength from Vegeta before he left, where Vegeta wordlessly acknowledged his strength as a fighter and showed he was proud, in his own way. - Hell he didn't even get Gohan to see him off either. People just straight up don't care about Future Trunks all that much in the manga. "Zamasu's defeated! Get out already! Next arc coming up!" - We didn't have time for those things, but we did have time for Mai to crush on Trunks a little bit. Ugh. -- I thought it was really neat, bringing up the mortal in Universe 12 who developed a time machine, and Zamasu wanting to use that to go to the past. I don't think the anime ever mentioned it, and it added slightly more stakes to the situation. Very interesting in hindsight, now that we know Universe 12 is one of the four "safe" universes. LOL. That would honestly be hilarious. By using the time machine, an artificial method of time travel unlike Whis' staff or the time rings, he'd end up just creating more parallel timelines. In essence, he'd create MORE mortals that he would then purge, and continue traveling around doing this for eternity. The Zero Mortals Plan WOULD NEVER END. I'm just picturing an exhausted and old Zamasu, thousands of years from now, wondering how in the world all these NINGEN keep popping up before he hops in the time machine one more time. I generally stick to one rule for DB stories. Goku's going to be the big hero and Vegeta's there to be the Worf Effect. Gohan during the Cell Games was an aberration that hasn't repeated itself since, even when there was an opportunity to do just that against Buu. In Gohan's case I think he'll be a lot worse off in the manga. It skipped over RoF completely, so the manga has never shown Gohan with a desire to regain his strength after Frieza's return, IIRC. Now it's skipped Gohan's scene as well to Trunks. At best he'll start training again after Lavender almost kills him.
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Post by Griffith on Jul 22, 2017 2:22:01 GMT
Don't forget the other Super Saiyans in Universe 6 and how they got their forms. Yes. I would much prefer they are already Super Saiyans. Ideally I think Caba should have been a Super Saiyan before he met Vegeta and Vegeta just taught him how to go SS2. That way it might feel better for U6 Saiyans getting higher SS levels. That ship sailed so it might be better to skip them getting the forms and just say Cabba trained them and they got SS. I'd just rather they never get Super Saiyan at all. Instead they simply have their own unique form that they're capable of using. Would make them more different from the Universe 7 Saiyans besides just being good guys. And we wouldn't be forced through all of these Back Tingles.
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Jul 25, 2017 6:12:08 GMT
Well, it's over, finally.
The Supreme Kais were more involved in the action and saved their skins with the teleportation. Better than the anime where they were just exposition material.
A Nice little moment between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta here is still the same we know from Z. I agree with the part that it feels more like Z than Super. Anime only managed to give that feel with its Limitbreaker Opening Song XD
Future Trunks and Mai could have stayed in the present. Could help inspire Goten and Trunks to grow.
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Post by Andres on Jul 25, 2017 21:23:44 GMT
Well, it's over, finally.
The Supreme Kais were more involved in the action and saved their skins with the teleportation. Better than the anime where they were just exposition material.
A Nice little moment between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta here is still the same we know from Z. I agree with the part that it feels more like Z than Super. Anime only managed to give that feel with its Limitbreaker Opening Song XD
Future Trunks and Mai could have stayed in the present. Could help inspire Goten and Trunks to grow.
I read it on Mangafox. It's not up there yet.
Is there an english translation somewhere around?
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