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Post by Son Pan on Jul 25, 2017 21:55:58 GMT
Well, it's over, finally.
The Supreme Kais were more involved in the action and saved their skins with the teleportation. Better than the anime where they were just exposition material.
A Nice little moment between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta here is still the same we know from Z. I agree with the part that it feels more like Z than Super. Anime only managed to give that feel with its Limitbreaker Opening Song XD
Future Trunks and Mai could have stayed in the present. Could help inspire Goten and Trunks to grow.
I read it on Mangafox. It's not up there yet.
Is there an english translation somewhere around?Mangastream has it on their site: readms.net/r/dragon_ball_super/026/4453/1
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Post by Andres on Jul 25, 2017 22:04:40 GMT
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Post by Xeno Black on Jul 26, 2017 0:14:16 GMT
I'd enjoyed this chapter for what it was worth. Yeah it does suck that Zeno destroyed both Zamasu and the future timeline, but you can get away with so much when you have Toriyama's outline restricting you. Zamasu literally became a unstoppable force at the end, similar to Agent Smith in the Martrix. So Neo, aka Zeno, was summoned to take care of the virus before it propagated across the entire mainframe (the xenoverse). There was no other way to end it, unless of course more ass pulls were used. I still rather had Vegito or Future Trunks killing off Zamasu when he was still a single being, which would have been more satisfying and give both heroes the pleasure to kill a major villain in the original arc (Mecha Frieza and Future Cell do not count in my books). And Beerus fighting against Zamasu would have been a treat, and give us another battle with him that might push the god of destruction to his limits.
I have a feeling that the mortal who discovered time travel in universe 12 will make a impact in the ToP in the manga. If so, perhaps some of the successful universes (1, 5, 8, and 12) might participate with some of the average universes getting destroyed or exempt beforehand. I like this, and we will get a set of about 40 other characters to participate that might be comparable to Jiren and Hit. Or better. But that is only if Toriyama will allow this in his draft.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 12, 2017 13:31:39 GMT
I hadn't seen these before, so I thought I'd post them here in case anyone else hadn't seen them. Special chapters by Toyotaro going into some detail that wasn't covered in the main manga. Namely, how Pilaf got young again and why Trunks returned to the future. 2016 Special:2017 Special:Consolidated Pros and Cons for both, IMO: Pros:- I have nothing good to say about the 2016 one. I hate Pilaf. Er...Piccolo's regretful expression and Goku going "welp I died lol" is kinda funny I guess? - Hey, at least Gohan was actually acknowledged to have been training. Off-panel until this special chapter but whatever. - Gohan actually says goodbye to him in the special chapter. In the main chapter Trunks was basically kicked out the door as soon as the plot didn't need him anymore. Cons:- Literally the last wish in the Future Timeline was Pilaf's greedy wish for youth. I hate Pilaf. I mean, Gohan would've never gathered the balls in time for a wish anyway before Piccolo died, but still. - Trunks took the destruction of his entire universe pretty well, all things considered. It wasn't until his role model unknowingly shamed him for everything he lost that he changed his mind. - No epic brofist acknowledgement of strength from Vegeta before Trunks left. - Trunks would've been cool to see in the ToP since he was all set to live in the present timeline, until Gohan unknowingly shamed him into going to an alternate alternate future timeline to show he can protect it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 4:26:58 GMT
Nice to see that the Zamasu saga is finally over in the manga! Not much to say about it since it didn't differ too much from the anime ending. Overall, I preferred the manga version of the saga since Toyotaro tried to keep it more consistent and it was shorter with less unnecessary filler. I'm probably in the minority that didn't really enjoy the saga and felt it was wasted potential. I liked the idea of a renegade god but I think the concept should've been saved for when we've been introduced to more characters and gods from other universes. I think it would've been more fitting to have a more powerful god(s) or even angels be the ones to rebel rather than a Kaioshin using the a cheap weakness to take out the Gods of Destruction and Angels. I really hated the concept of Goku Black and felt it was forced evil/possessed Goku fan service. Zamasu switched bodies with a mortal when he wasn't the strongest in the U6/U7 tournament let alone the strongest mortal in the multiverse. Given the fact that all the Gods of Destruction were apparently mortals that reached godhood and we learn in the ToP saga that there are powerful mortals out there training for the role, it didn't make a lot of sense to me why Zamasu was so triggered by Goku being a god that he decided to immediately switch bodies with him. His zero mortal plan seemed really hopeless and convoluted when you consider that his plan was basically to jump from one universe to another taking out the Kaioshin hoping that he never gets caught (he was successful but it only made the Gods of Destruction and Angels look really incompetent) and then going from planet to planet killing every mortal while hoping that Zeno and Grand Priest never notice and hoping that there aren't any God-tier mortals stronger than Goku Black. Something else that bothered me was why didn't King Yemma send anyone back to fight Goku Black? If he let Vegeta return to fight Buu then surely a threat to the multiverse would be enough to send back Beerus assuming he went to Other World after Kaioshin was killed by Dabura. Plus every universe should have a King Yemma-equivalent god judging souls that could either send people back or possibly notify Grand Priest that the gods of their universe have been killed. I get that they were trying to give us a darker saga with a new "layered" villain but I feel it's an insult to the viewer when it requires them to put less thought into it than they would one of the earlier more light-hearted sagas.
I'm looking forward to see Toyotaro's version of this current saga. I haven't watched the anime since the recruitment episodes and decided to wait until it's over to binge watch the whole thing. I have a feeling that most of what we've seen so far has been filler/anime-only including the screwy power scaling and characterization during the earlier episodes. One of Toei's producers said that Toriyama's outline was very "barebones" so their writers add a lot of their own ideas. Something funny I read was that one of Toei's writers offered his "interpretation" as to why Goku was using SSJB against Krillin and #17 as in he wasn't exactly sure because he wasn't the one to write those episodes. No wonder the anime feels disjointed if Toei's own writers aren't even on the same page and consistency could vary depending on the writer. The original anime had some inconsistent filler but they suffered from having to add it so they wouldn't get ahead of the manga so some of the filler was contradicted by later plotpoints. This is a completely different era. Dragonball has a been a cash cow for Toei for over two decades and they now own the rights to One Piece which are some of the most successful (if not the two most successful) anime of all time. They should have the means to produce a more organized and consistent adaption than before. Plus, Toriyama gives Toei the outline of the saga and they break it up into episodes so they're planning the entire saga from the beginning. They can't really avoid the plot holes from Toriyama's outline but the least they could do is make sure their own content doesn't further contradict anything.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 14, 2017 6:58:34 GMT
There is a big issue as of why Goku Black never made sense. We never got a closure of what happened to Hit. Hit should've able to handle an initial Goku Black very easily. What about Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo and all those dudes who seem close to their Kaioshin?
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Post by Symbiotic on Aug 14, 2017 8:33:27 GMT
I hadn't seen these before, so I thought I'd post them here in case anyone else hadn't seen them. Special chapters by Toyotaro going into some detail that wasn't covered in the main manga. Namely, how Pilaf got young again and why Trunks returned to the future. 2016 Special:I used to have a good explanation for why the Pilaf gang making their wish couldn't fit into the android saga but that was all the way back when BoG was new and I had to care about them. That special makes things so much worse than I thought. I hate that all the way in the beginning they're a source of comic relief in the grimdark future timeline.
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Post by Azoth on Aug 21, 2017 8:43:12 GMT
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 21, 2017 14:29:55 GMT
Not gonna lie, that Vegeta vs. Beerus fight was awesome. Also, a very good indicator of how far--at least, in Toyotaro's mind--Goku and Vegeta have come. Mastered SSB = Whis saying "Beerus had better get serious here," and Vegeta can land a punch powerful enough to make Beerus mad. Beerus also clearly said "you can't beat me with that transformation," setting up whatever new one may yet happen in the ToP.
Also, it's a good indicator of how far Beerus has come that he could get mad at Vegeta and NOT kill him.
I still don't know why both manga and anime persist with this "you still think first and move later" nonsense. They're fishing around for flaws to give guys who by all rights should have no major flaws left to work on.
This conversation was going on in the DBS General thread, but Toriyama seems to be very militantly pushing the "Goku is dangerously idiotic and selfish" schtick, which is very curious to watch. If Toyotaro wants to spend time doing the exhibition match, we'll see if his Goku ends up being as callous as the anime version. "Losers get erased? Then bring it on! I'll beat you all myself, losers!"
On the whole, though, I really like the manga. Like DBM, it feels like the DBZ I grew up with. I really like how Toyotaro handles Beerus and Whis. They're lots of fun.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 21, 2017 14:38:32 GMT
Oh man... So Goku being scratched by a bullet ALSO wasn't a filler scene from Toei? Wow. I could've sworn that scene would've definitely been Toei filler. Huh. Makes me wonder what else isn't actually just fluff from Toei. So Vegeta has the same mastered form of SSB that Goku has, because "If Kakarot can do it so can I!". Umm. Okay. Then he lands a hit on (admittedly just playing around) Beerus...and even this surprise hit that took Beerus off-guard didn't make him budge an INCH. It really does highlight just how far ahead Beerus is of characters like Goku, Vegeta, Black or even Merged Zamasu. Then we get the same spiel from Whis as in the anime about moving without thinking and how even Beerus hasn't mastered it yet. Now we get to the moment that Kirasha was talking about before with Goku not being there for Goten or Gohan...and honestly I think it's actually a bit worse than what I'd heard. Not only was he not there when they were born, he doesn't even know WHEN they were born! Definitely handled better in the anime. Vegeta's response of Bulma never being able to forgive him if he wasn't there is identical in both the anime and manga, but Goku's response to Bulma not forgiving him is just... more Goku in the anime. His response is basically: "Chi-Chi obviously doesn't hold a grudge against me for not being there when Goten was born, so you should be able to come train with me best buddy, and everything will be a-okay!" So then we have the scene where Goku toys with calling Zen-Oh or going to Zen-Oh, but sadly doesn't have the part with Beerus threatening to just HAKAI him for the trouble. Goku admittedly looks a bit less sinister here in the manga in a little bit of a turnaround...but will still end up with the same result in the end of course. Then it just ends there. Before even getting to Zen-Oh. Sigh.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Aug 21, 2017 18:48:37 GMT
"Yeah F*** Goku!"
PROS: - If Kakarot can do it, so can I! (Douchebag memes about Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 4 years after Goku got his.) - Epic fight between Vegeta and Beerus, but I would've preferred Beerus to get knocked off his feet once instead of getting decked in the jaw, but beggars can't be choosers. - PREGNANT BULMA!... AGAIN!
CONS: - Wait, Goku getting grazed by bullets wasn't a filler scene? Aw man. The better route would've been just Goku looking for Vegeta to train against, and then being told he already went to Whis' place. It maybe recycled moment of funny as the RoF version, but still, it didn't bring confusion regarding Bullets... and guard up... and God Ki. (How did Gohan in BoG deflect those bullets if he "didn't train" to maintain his power, but Goku literally came back from Fighting Zamasu and here he's been grazed? I'm lost for words. - Whis telling Vegeta he needs to relax more is getting old, why not just say he needs more training to refine his power once again? The "Basics" of God Ki is ridiculous if we can't say "God Ki is more destructive than normal Ki and control over it is extremely difficult" - Goku... you had one chance to fix that "didn't know when Gohan was born" by saying "Oh I literally was out getting firewood when Gohan was born" Toyotaro could've worded that way to make it ambiguous, but saying he doesn't know his son's birthdays is just turning Goku into a massive jerk. We thought Saiyans had no companion ship? If we call the manga with Gine and Bardock canon, at least they looked after their son and cared for his well-being. Domesticating Vegeta proved to be effective. Goku? Not so much. - No Hakai threat from Beerus? Just sounds like
Beerus: Don't do it Goku Goku: Imma push it Beerus: Don't push it Goku Goku: Imma pushing it! Beerus: GOKU DO NOT PUSH THAT BUTTON! Goku: I pushed it. Imma leave now. *disappears* Beerus: ME DAMN IT ALL!!!
rather than the Anime snapping Beerus into a serious mode as the God of Destruction, turning stoic and even threatens a good friend such as Goku because he crossed a line.
Sorry guys but the Tournament of Power in Manga form better blow my mind away or I'm just going to stick with the Anime as the "Canon" storyline, even with the horrible Retcon SSB Weakness.
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Post by Kirasha on Aug 21, 2017 20:31:06 GMT
Honestly, the fight between Vegeta and Beerus is the only thing that makes this chapter worth the read, because that scene is just amazingly great. Everything else is just...eh.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 5:12:18 GMT
Im on mobile so might add more later but this is another one of those times that I really wished Goku had stayed dead during the Buu saga. I was hoping Toyotaro would fix Goku's characterization this saga but it looks like Toriyama is the one who wrote him to be more retarded. Hopefully the apathetic, brain dead Goku from the preliminary round is anime-only but I wouldn't be surprised if it is also from Toriyama at this point. While I think the manga is a little more consistent, I honestly can't say with a straight face that either version of DBS makes for a good sequel to DBZ. I'm glad it's technically not a sequel and just an interquel before the real ending and I'm hoping something happens that erases it so it's reduced to an AU. My favorite parts of DBS mostly involved the new characters like Hit, Beerus, and Gowasu. Our own Z fighters were caricatures more often than not so there wasnt much to enjoy from them aside from a few nice interactions like Piccolo caring for Pan, #17 talking to his neice, etc. I guess that might be one of the reasons why I preferred BoG (the movie) and the U6 saga over other sagas because new characters were fun and they took up more of the screen time so less time to see the Z fighters forgetting and relearning old lessons or making you question if you're viewing a parody of DBZ or a legitimate attempt at a sequel. Toriyama had bad memory during the manga's run so unfortunately he'd have worse memory of it 20 years later. Toei's current staff seems to remember even less or simply don't care. I'm not sure about Toyotaro because it feels like he's the most dedicated out of the bunch and big fan of the original but I don't think he has the freedom to change what's in Toriyamas script and only rearrange some of it or try to explain more at best. I think I'm going to wait until this saga is over in the manga before reading it like I'm doing with the anime. Flaws are less noticeable when you spend less time (or no time) thinking about them and just move on to the next episode/chapter. It's also easier to just accept it as a cheap attempt to milk another classic franchise like almost every recent reboot or sequel and not consider it part of the original.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 22, 2017 5:41:10 GMT
I'm surprised we got this almost filler manga episode right after the Goku Black saga dragged out thaaaaaat much. Did Toyotaro ever actually say the manga was going to be ahead of the Anime? LMAO.
I'm worried how Hit is going to be portrayed at the ToP. He's far, far weaker in the manga. But then again, Goku went full manga mode in the anime and went SSJred. Yet Hit on the anime didn't seem to be retconned since he was still fighting evenly and even did the "phasing out" technique he did during filler episodes.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Aug 23, 2017 6:11:05 GMT
I'm worried how Hit is going to be portrayed at the ToP. He's far, far weaker in the manga. But then again, Goku went full manga mode in the anime and went SSJred. Yet Hit on the anime didn't seem to be retconned since he was still fighting evenly and even did the "phasing out" technique he did during filler episodes. Tossing this out there, maybe the synopsis Toriyama gave to both Toei and Toyotaro was "Hit trained to be 'nearly' as strong as Goku." It is pretty vague to be fair. The Anime might have taken it literally if that was the case (Ass-assing Goku), maybe the manga would show him/have him throw a line "I've got a few new tricks for you when the time is right, Son Goku," hopefully another offscreen training that we wouldn't think so much. *Achoo caulifla's super saiyan and super saiyan two forms are pathetic and kale's berserker form needs a "better" buildup* man that was a hell of a sneeze. Pardon me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 23:05:37 GMT
The newest Super chapter says that Goku wasn't there when Gohan and Goten were born. We all know that Goku wasn't present for Goten's birth since he was dead during that time, but what really irks me is that he wasn't there for Gohan's birth when he clearly was very much alive at that time. My guess for this is that, he simply wasn't allowed to see the delivery, which meant that he had to wait for atleast a day or two before he could see Gohan or as The Retro Kakarotto pointed out, he must have stepped out of the house while Gohan was being born. The Retro KakarottoI think you need this for that little sneeze you got there.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 28, 2017 4:55:29 GMT
I'm pretty sure Toei is better at keeping Goku somewhat to Toriyama's new vision, while keeping him caring and empathetic. Goku was pissed when he found out Zamasu killed Goten and Chi-chi in another timeline. Whereas in the manga he barely batted an eye. I would say Toei has always been better at the manga in fleshing out and adding more emotion to the characters more times than not.
Say would you will about Toei, but the filler of Goku and Chi-chi happily celebrating Goku's recovery of heart virus and even sealed it with a kiss was one of the best emotional and loving moments between them. Toei makes it is mistakes, but in terms of Goku being balanced better I would put my money on them. Somehow I find it hard to imagine manga will have Goku be emotional over Roshi's supposed death. He'll probably just remember they have Dragon Balls and not care as much.
In the manga I expect Vegeta to be the more mature and caring character than Goku even if in the original manga that was reversed. Goku was the one chiding Vegeta for not putting his pride aside to fuse to defeat Majin Buu to avenge their family. That is just what we have to accept that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 5:38:35 GMT
Toei may have made up a whole lot of filler, but altering Goku's character to better fit the audience's views of him is what I think is Toei's strong suit. The Super manga made him a borderline psychopath which kind of doesn't appeal to Toei so they altered his character to get more audience because who doesn't like a hero?
The manga may have troubles with portraying the Goku and Roshi moment, but I'm guessing Toriyama or Toyotaro will make up something.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Aug 28, 2017 6:15:01 GMT
Toei may have made up a whole lot of filler, but altering Goku's character to better fit the audience's views of him is what I think is Toei's strong suit. The Super manga made him a borderline psychopath which kind of doesn't appeal to Toei so they altered his character to get more audience because who doesn't like a hero?The manga may have troubles with portraying the Goku and Roshi moment, but I'm guessing Toriyama or Toyotaro will make up something. Toriyama apparently. Can you imagine what DBZ would've been like if there were none of the "Heroic" traits Goku exhibited? Mercy for Raditz, Vegeta and Frieza, Selflessness for stopping Cell, greater good and admitting defeat.... sorta... for Majin Buu? When he said let the kids handle it, he's done taking care of Earth for good, saying sorry to Gohan and sending him off to what could be his death, and fusing "permanently" with Vegeta to take down a greater evil than either of them could realize?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 7:12:42 GMT
The Retro Kakarotto Just a slugfest where Goku is a psychopath who just married Chi-Chi because of a childhood promise he never understood until after the tournament, who made babies with her because she wanted it, someone for whom fighting is his only love. He has a reduced number of allies, since he pretty much kills Tien, Chiaotzu, Yamcha and Vegeta because they were evil at one point. In my opinion, he would just be someone who only exists for himself and saner version of you but slightly better than your U3 counterpart and leagues more than your U18 counterpart because his writing and personality is unpredictable.
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