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Post by Son Pan on Oct 30, 2017 23:46:44 GMT
I honestly think I'd prefer the anime's version of how Frieza got so strong, and I thought I'd never say anything positive about that particular powerup. I'd much prefer Frieza be a mutant freak of nature with godly amounts (pun intended) of normal ki than training for 3 months beating up a Zarbon-level foe and attaining god ki that way. Either way the powerup is still absurd I think, and neither Toei nor Toyotaro can really fix that particular instance. I agree with you on it being an absurd power up either way. I was just throwing out as a possibility since we've seen Toyotaro turn things on their head or do things differently from the anime and movies. I figured god form Freeza might be something he would do over regular ki power up and it does have similarities to the god forms in the manga. I suppose if it goes down that route though, as long as he doesn't ever show Freeza's training we could imagine he underwent specialized training, like we do with Vegeta.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 31, 2017 0:53:49 GMT
I honestly think I'd prefer the anime's version of how Frieza got so strong, and I thought I'd never say anything positive about that particular powerup. I'd much prefer Frieza be a mutant freak of nature with godly amounts (pun intended) of normal ki than training for 3 months beating up a Zarbon-level foe and attaining god ki that way. Either way the powerup is still absurd I think, and neither Toei nor Toyotaro can really fix that particular instance. I agree with you on it being an absurd power up either way. I was just throwing out as a possibility since we've seen Toyotaro turn things on their head or do things differently from the anime and movies. I figured god form Freeza might be something he would do over regular ki power up and it does have similarities to the god forms in the manga. I suppose if it goes down that route though, as long as he doesn't ever show Freeza's training we could imagine he underwent specialized training, like we do with Vegeta. Eh, even then I only buy Vegeta's powerup strictly because it was training with Whis that did it. If Vegeta had just done a lot of push-ups and sit-ups and drank lots of juice for god ki I'd be just as dubious about his powerup as I am about Frieza's. I don't see how Frieza also could've done the same thing as Vegeta due to no Whis training him, but I'll be patient and wait to see what Toyotaro does.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 31, 2017 1:33:03 GMT
Eh, even then I only buy Vegeta's powerup strictly because it was training with Whis that did it. If Vegeta had just done a lot of push-ups and sit-ups and drank lots of juice for god ki I'd be just as dubious about his powerup as I am about Frieza's. I don't see how Frieza also could've done the same thing as Vegeta due to no Whis training him, but I'll be patient and wait to see what Toyotaro does. They shot themselves in the foot then. As long as they keep to the Whis excuse without ever going into detail Vegeta's obtaining it has some legitimacy to fans, but the moment they try to have another character get god ki without a god supervising people will not buy it, unless we learn how Goku and Vegeta learned it, which risks being a mundane method or worse just basic training, making god ki seem even less special. God this is depressing. Such a cool concept really doomed to being just be a generic power up in the anime or plot device in the manga.
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Post by Azoth on Nov 21, 2017 21:33:19 GMT
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 21, 2017 21:39:15 GMT
Jiren gets more character development in a single chapter than he does in over 30 episodes.
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Post by Kirasha on Nov 21, 2017 23:03:24 GMT
Jiren is fricking Superman, I don't call that development, I call that copy/paste.
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 21, 2017 23:04:48 GMT
Jiren is fricking Superman, I don't call that development, I call that copy/paste. Exactly!
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 21, 2017 23:33:43 GMT
This Chapter: This makes more sense that the GP would inform everyone the official rules of the tournament instead of popping up in U7 telling Goku and the Gods and then doing the same for the other 7 universes competing. Also very glad we didn't get the "That mortal Goku is an enemy of the GoDs, it's all his fault we're gonna die!" from the collective group and only Beerus, very slightly. It's a shift from who says it all but nevertheless it's a bigger impact, such as Shin being the one to say the lower ML universes have a chance at survival rather than U1 SK during the tournament. Goku roasting Beerus the God of Gluts? 'nuff said. Bulma wanting more babies? Vegeta, looks like you'll need to do some special training. Whis is once again the magic OB-GYN! But Goku? Plz. Please. PLEASE STOP BEING SO RETARDED TOWARDS YOUR OWN WIFE AND CHILDREN! YOU'RE ASSASSINATING YOUR Z CHARACTER THAT LOVED AND FOUGHT TO PROTECT YOUR FRIENDS, FAMILY, AND HOME PLANET!!! AT THIS POINT, YOU'RE MAKING U13 KAKAROTTO'S BRIEF FLASHBACK MOMENT OF PLAYING WITH KRILLIN IN THE WATER LOOK LIKE HE CARES MORE ABOUT HIS FRIEND THAN YOU EVER DID TO YOUR FAMILY! I AM CRINGING SO HARD AT HOW GOKU'S CHARACTER CONTINUES TO GO DOWN THE DRAIN JUST TO EMPHASIZE TORIYAMA'S BELIEF THAT GOKU WANTED TO FIGHT STRONG GUYS, NOT REALLY BE A HERO. AND WHY IS MY PARAGRAPH IN CAPS? I COULD'VE SWORN I PRESSED THE caps butto - oh hey, caps are gone, I guess my rant is over. Jiren's space booty inclusion in the tournament. Yeah, I'm just gonna apply this Manga character into Anime Jiren's background thoughts so that he can just spend his time and thoughts about how he wants to go back to U11 asap instead of being bored and uninterested. What would Superman's Jiren's wish be if he had the chance to make the ultimate wish come true? Eliminate all evil beings? His wish sounds extremely unattainable that Belmod needed to bribe the guy with the SDBs, but even then, Jiren is only going until he hears a distress signal from U11. Can't wait to see what Jiren will be like by the time the tournament starts, but I'm betting we're going to get a scene of someone learning how to channel their Back Tingles, preeeeety soon. Either that, or just avoid it altogether and say it was "tough training."
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Post by Axalon on Nov 21, 2017 23:59:09 GMT
I don't think I commented on this when the anime revealed Jiren, but I gotta say I do appreciate his design. For once we have an antagonist who doesn't get stronger by shrinking. Jiren is large and musclebound. Definitely picking up some Superman vibes from him, kind of. Kind of disappointed they just say "Goten and Trunks? HAHAHA NO" without even bothering to give an explanation for it. At least the anime said they were too inexperienced (or whatever it was they said), here it's just a big NO, which seems silly given how much stronger than Tien Goten and Trunks are. We'll see how Tien fares in the manga by comparison, but given his performance in the anime he could've been replaced by a stronger character like Goten and no one would've cared. Interestingly, Vegeta is the one to suggest training Gohan up but then Goku refuses, citing that he doesn't like to fight. Makes me wonder if Gohan's just going to stick with SS1/SS2 in the manga. I get that the Pride Troopers getting trapped by Crab Foam was meant to happen so Jiren could have a Big Damn Heroes moment and fly across space and save the day, but it kind of paints a poor picture of the Mighty Pride Troopers if they were all just immobilized by a bunch of bubbles and saliva. Can't wait to see what Jiren will be like by the time the tournament starts, but I'm betting we're going to get a scene of someone learning how to channel their Back Tingles, preeeeety soon. Either that, or just avoid it altogether and say it was "tough training." I'm really hoping it doesn't involve a lot of standing/sitting around and meditating. I mean, I kind of get it. Kind of. Assuming that Anime Jiren is like Manga Jiren and is just refusing to knock people out of the ring because he wants to keep them alive as long as possible because he's a Superman Boy Scout expy, I get that. ...But I still think it's dumb that he's just standing around doing nothing. Hopefully Manga Jiren actually protects his team or something like he did here.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 22, 2017 0:25:59 GMT
I don't think I commented on this when the anime revealed Jiren, but I gotta say I do appreciate his design. For once we have an antagonist who doesn't get stronger by shrinking. Jiren is large and musclebound. Definitely picking up some Superman vibes from him, kind of. Kind of disappointed they just say "Goten and Trunks? HAHAHA NO" without even bothering to give an explanation for it. At least the anime said they were too inexperienced (or whatever it was they said), here it's just a big NO, which seems silly given how much stronger than Tien Goten and Trunks are. We'll see how Tien fares in the manga by comparison, but given his performance in the anime he could've been replaced by a stronger character like Goten and no one would've cared. Interestingly, Vegeta is the one to suggest training Gohan up but then Goku refuses, citing that he doesn't like to fight. Makes me wonder if Gohan's just going to stick with SS1/SS2 in the manga. I get that the Pride Troopers getting trapped by Crab Foam was meant to happen so Jiren could have a Big Damn Heroes moment and fly across space and save the day, but it kind of paints a poor picture of the Mighty Pride Troopers if they were all just immobilized by a bunch of bubbles and saliva.Iirc, it's because Goten and Trunks would (according to Vegeta) freak out and perform poorly if they were to arrive at some tournament meant to end all of life if they lose. They needed some levelheaded warriors who wouldn't act arrogant and be willing to stay focused instead of goofing off. In retrospect, it's probably to reduce the number of theories that Vegito will appear and that the "rules go as Zeno pleases!" was withheld till the Mafuba was shown. And to make the Kefla fusion an even bigger reveal if there's "no fusion done during the tournament" though I would draw the line at the method of fusion because of the whole "only use your natural abilities, not external assistance" rule made prior to the change. Goten and Trunks' Metamoran fusion is a natural technique but the Potara isn't, but of course, Zeno would allow it because it looked cool. Re: Crab Foam. You mean like this? If the giant Crab had just held the civilians hostage, or in his hands right next to him so that Dyspo couldn't have launched his attack, I would've found that more believable than the whole stuck in foam and if he missed, he would've hit a civilian. But, that's just me. Though that's the most logical course of action when participating in a tournament but not wanting to kill another universe, I still think he's going to stand around and spectate, save for saving the weaker Ginyu Force 5 members from getting knocked out. For the story to play similar to the anime (yes yes, I know both have different interpretation, just hear me out first ), they would introduce Jiren's ridiculous strength in front of Goku's eyes near the middle or halfway point of the tournament, not at the very beginning. If they did, Goku's going to fight Jiren and waste energy/stamina which would only be resolved in Goku giving up momentarily or unlocking Ultra Instincts ridiculously early. Something I don't see Manga Goku thinking that strategically, even for the Manga.
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 22, 2017 0:44:01 GMT
1. Manga Beerus is FAR more competent than Anime Beerus. He may not necessarily be more responsible--he may just be trying to save his own skin--but he seems a lot more concerned with what's going on. Anime Beerus, from what I've seen, is a bit more clueless.
2. Belmod is a lot more important in the manga. And villainous. I wonder where they're going with him.
3. Bra's birth was meant to be a joke, but it was a bit disturbing to me. Whis gently removing her from Bulma in the anime is far better than suddenly teleporting her out of the womb into thin air. Of course, the whole idea itself is strange. Nothing wrong with implicating a woman actually went through a normal birthing process...although it seems The Powers That Be are trying as hard as possible to keep Bulma as young and hot as they can get away with (compare DBS Bulma to EoZ Bulma), and a magic angel birth helps that. At this point they might as well have somebody wish on the Dragon Balls to give all the female characters eternal youth or something. Gotta have fanservice!
4. Vegeta wearing civilian clothes in the manga. Nice. I always felt that he acclimated far better to life on Earth than Goku did, despite his Saiyan pride. After all, Vegeta did grow up in civilization, so I'd assume he knows that when in Rome, you do as the Romans do. Goku, who grew up in the wild basically on his own, is more willing to do his own thing no matter how strange it is.
5. The "there are only 28 planets with life" is in the manga, too. Stupid.
6. Supreme Kai brings up that healing is allowed, and Buu can heal. I doubt Buu makes it to the ToP in the manga, but all in all Buu is a far superior pick to Frieza...Frieza's strong, but is he worth infinitely healing Goku and Vegeta?
7. You know how I hoped U11 had a "heroes of another story" vibe, and how a better way to do the ToP would be from a different universe's perspective? The manga's been doing a good job of that so far. We have Dypso showing kindness to civilians, Toppo saving Dypso from a blast, the two working together and being friendly, Toppo telling Dypso he shouldn't shoot because he'll kill civilians if he misses, and most importantly...
8. CHARACTERIZATION FOR JIREN. He shows up in the nick of time, doesn't use spaceships because he can fly faster on his own, doesn't kill the monster but instead traps it, and shows concern for the citizens of the city. He also doesn't want to fight in the tournament at first because that means he will be directly responsible for killing seven universes. I mean, wow. I'm impressed. I wonder what his wish is.
9. If the manga chooses to focus on U11 instead of U6--and a certain pair of female Super Saiyans--I won't be mad at all. I'd rather there be focus on MEANINGFUL characters than shoehorning someone into importance simply because they're a novelty ("Look! We made two female Super Saiyans and made them main characters! Aren't you so proud of us?")
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Post by Axalon on Nov 22, 2017 0:48:02 GMT
Iirc, it's because Goten and Trunks would (according to Vegeta) freak out and perform poorly if they were to arrive at some tournament meant to end all of life if they lose. They needed some levelheaded warriors who wouldn't act arrogant and be willing to stay focused instead of goofing off. The irony here is high given how Anime Goku, Vegeta, Frieza and the Androids all immediately break away to go have some fun, with Goku later deciding to take on Jiren right away because his Battle Lust is tingling. We'll see. Here's hoping. I dunno, this is the same Goku who pulled Mastered SSB and HAKAI out of his ass. Anything's possible.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 22, 2017 0:53:53 GMT
5. The "there are only 28 planets with life" is in the manga, too. Stupid. Wouldn't it be 29 planets anyway? He's counting Namek as a loss, but not including New Namek replacing it? Oh Supreme Kai. I think we'll have to wait and see on Frieza. The anime has had him continually standing around looking sinister and plotting things and not really applying his strength for the most part. We'll see if trading Buu was worth it. Though I will say I'd have preferred if Buu had just healed Goku instead of trading punches with Caulifla.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 22, 2017 2:22:05 GMT
Jiren is fricking Superman, I don't call that development, I call that copy/paste. A copy paste is far better than just him saying "fuck off" and standing still for 8 real life months. Belmond also feels more like the Joker, and it seems Toyotaro was truly going to do some Harley Quinn stuff with Marcarita (being sexually involved with Belmond and all). This is like a bizarre DC universe inside the DB world. Also, what Dyspo said to Jiren was weird, very weird as fuck "Where on earth were you?!" sounds way too wrong for the situation and context they are.
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Post by Namikaze on Nov 22, 2017 6:53:15 GMT
Jiren gets more character development in a single chapter than he does in over 30 episodes. It's always possible that Jiren will likely have the same exact characterization in the anime eventually. My guess is that Toyo and Toei (once again) just took two different approaches in regards to Jiren. The anime seems to be taking a bit of a slow route with Jiren's character. Toyo however just comes right out with it from the get-go. Jiren is essentially THE Pride Trooper, who is very Superman-like, has a condition for joining the tournament, and doesn't want to kill anyone. Something like that is good characterization to explain why Jiren in the anime isn't just flipping everyone in five seconds, but unlike the manga, the anime didn't give us this detail. I like that this gives more substance as to why I don't necessarily see too much issue with Jiren's portrayal thus far in the anime. Jiren's wish: My guess is that Jiren likely does have a personal wish, but meeting and fighting Goku will likely make him put aside his personal wishes for the greater good and simply wish everyone back. To Jiren, he could never betray the principles he abides his life to, so he does what is right. It'd be satisfying in a way since Jiren isn't a villain. He's a good guy like Goku with his own story that always sticks to his moral code.
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Post by Beerus the Wondercat on Nov 22, 2017 16:03:53 GMT
Jiren is fricking Superman, I don't call that development, I call that copy/paste. I mean, i'd argue it's better than NOTHING. It could be pretty clever if they planned to make Jiren the "Superman" character to parody all those Goku/Superman comparisons. Be pretty meta and unique to have an antagonist that's not evil but simply fighting to keep his universe alive. But we all know how "well" the last morally grey antagonist in DB went down... Jiren's space booty inclusion in the tournament. Yeah, I'm just gonna apply this Manga character into Anime Jiren's background thoughts so that he can just spend his time and thoughts about how he wants to go back to U11 asap instead of being bored and uninterested. He's going to do different version of "Justice Flash" with that marvelous backside. Vegeta wearing civilian clothes in the manga. Nice. I always felt that he acclimated far better to life on Earth than Goku did, despite his Saiyan pride. After all, Vegeta did grow up in civilization, so I'd assume he knows that when in Rome, you do as the Romans do. Goku, who grew up in the wild basically on his own, is more willing to do his own thing no matter how strange it is. I noticed that too. I liked that. It made it seem that Vegeta has-you know-other clothes besides Saiyan armour all the time. Hell, at the end of Z he practically abandoned all his saiyan attire. I like the idea he only wears his Saiyan suit when he knows shit's going to hit the fan. Makes me forget about his character reset.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 22, 2017 23:10:07 GMT
I would not say Zamasu was morally grey at all. He basically was a really evil dude, who thought he was good. I am not sure if this truly qualifies as morally gray.
People who do evil stuff thinking they're righteous in real life are some of the most dangerous. Zen Buu and specially Raichi are indeed morally gray. Perhaps, even Hit is morally gray since he's an assassin with honor. But Zamasu was basically pure schizophrenic evil.
Raichi would not even dare consider himself a hero, going as far as correct other people who consider him to be so. Despite he has no issue of using the dead and committing genocides, he has indeed shown appreciation of life and being able to care for other people.
Zamasu on the other hand, despite his godly mumbo jumbo was just an omnicidal maniac and a rebel without a cause. He never showed regards for other people, not even the other deities whom he was "proud" to belong to. He also showed no regards in killing his master. There was nothing he wanted to protect, and no cause to avenge.
Zamasu, for me, is the most unambiguously morally black character in the entire DB franchise. Not even King Piccolo or Freeza were as evil. King Piccolo cared a lot for his subordinates and showed visible anger when they were killed. Freeza at least spared people to rule over. Zamasu? None of that. I am truly baffled people even attempt to classify him as morally gray. Even Kid Buu is more of a morally gray character than Zamasu, especially during his last moments.
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 23, 2017 4:58:35 GMT
Zamasu as a whole is a failed project. Like some have said in the past, if the Zamasu arc happened after the tournament of power, it would be more justifiable on how he develops his extremist views. For example, originally Zamasu is just a regular kaio who is a prodigy at fighting. Zamasu's strength is borderline kaioshin level, but his experience and cognitive thinking and morals are not exactly there yet. His time as the North Kai allowed him to supervise and train many deceased warriors, but eventually became wary of some mortals as time went on. There power had the potential to outclass his, so Zamasu himself always trained to stay ahead. After all based on some of the savages he observes in his actual universe, he fears of a warrior trained by him who would revert to their original, barbaric ways. In his mind this will disrupt the balance of the universe since it should be impossible. Feeling conflicted with the duality of living and deceased men, Zamasu later on seeks to become the apprentice of Gowasu, but has a difficult time accepting mortals for the way they are. And seeing the many evil acts of mortals via time ring will help birth his extreme ideology, but still puts it at the back burner in favor of his masters teaching. And along with some of his greatest disciples trained by himself encouraging Zamasu's advanced training, Zamasu slowly tries to conform himself, though the despicable acts of men constantly haunt him. But it all changes when the tournament of power starts. With Universe 7 fresh from winning the Universe 6 tournament, Zeno starts the ToP. Zamasu attends the exhibition matches, and becomes disgusted with the mortal named Goku for starting a multiverse genocidal tournament. And witnessing Universe 9 does not help since there universe is a huge dump with a worthless destroyer god. When the exhibition matches end, Zamasu starts to believe in his balance mentality in full, and realizes that a certain number of them should be killed off. But to accomplish this, it needs a perfect destroyer, and wishes to claim this. But since he knows that Gowasu will not accept this mental transition as the entire universe looks for ten powerful mortals, Zamasu keeps it bottled up for the time being. With only 9 warriors collected, Zamasu requests to join the tournament, and allows his "godly status" as a kaioshin apprentice stripped from him. Now as the leader of team universe 10, Zamasu spends the remainder of his time researching universe 7, specifically Goku. With Godtube and Zuno divulging as much info as possible to Zamasu, the former apprentice feels conflicted that a mortal of such outstanding character will start a tournament as evil as this. Believing that Goku's mortal heritage has sullen his once noble aspects, his fears of a mortal surpassing the gods is realized in Son Goku. So he must be destroyed at all costs for the sake of the greater good. Right before the tournament started, Zamasu tries to make a audience with Zeno to stop all of this, but the king of gods simply brushes him off. Still trying to appeal, Cus intervenes and saves him from erasure. While standing behind Gowasu, Cus, and Rumoosh as the ToP was about to start, Zamasu feels disgusted to see mortals such as Universe 9 gathered together to decide the fate of the multiverse. When the tournament starts, wolves are literally throwing competitors to the other wolves as Zamasu sees it. This will create the feeling for Zamasu that only he, the pure one, can stop this nonsense. Ignoring all of the other universes in favor of Goku, he challenges the saiyan hero as he and Vegeta defeat the Trio De Dangers. Witnessing the entire destruction of universe 9, Zamasu feels conflicted in that it is Goku's fault for doing this, yet it is for the best since universe 9 was a dump. Standing before Goku, he acts him why he is doing this, and Goku gives him a answer Zamasu just does not agree with at all. Believing that Goku truly is the personification of evil, Zamasu vows to kill him despite going against the tournament rules and use the super dragon balls to exterminate all mortals in the multiverse. Hearing the shock reactions from many competitors, including Goku, Gowasu, and even Zeno, Zamasu shrugs it off and fights against Goku. But when Goku becomes a super saiyan 2, Zamasu loses and is teetering off the edge. Goku powers down and promises that he will win to fix everything, but Zamasu spits at him and calls him a liar. Preparing a last ditch God Split Cut, Zamasu charges at Goku, but Frieza intervenes and blasts a hole through his sternum. Coughing up blood, Zaamsu curses all mortals before Frieza tail whips Zamasu off the edge, the last representative of universe 10. Hit shakes his head at Zamasu as the Pride Troopers feel conflicted about Zamasu since they share some similarities with the fallen former apprentice. Back in the stands coughing up blood, Zamasu damns his luck as his entire life flashes before him as he and the entire universe is erased by Zeno. And remains dead until he is resurrected by the Super Dragon Balls thanks to Goku himself, the winner of the ToP. Back alive, Zamasu is filled with extreme rage and refuses that Goku brought him and his associates to life. When Cus confirms this, Zamasu is not having it and vows to change everything in the name of justice. And that is to kill Goku, replace Zeno, and destroy all gods and mortals who refuse change for the better. Thus this marks Zamasu's permanent transformation. And after this Zamasu regains his former godly status, replaces Gowasu as the new kaioshin to have both the potara and time rings, and secretly collects the super dragon balls. Once all collected Zamasu, in a ironic twist to become the very thing he despises, wishes to have is essence absorbed into Goku to permanently control his body. Dubbing himself Black, Zamasu starts his "zero mortals plan" as he trains in his new body. Mastering as much of his new body as possible, Black gains a low-level kaio and challenges Rumoosh. At first the battle was hard, but Black eventually kills him to become the new god of destruction as his apprentice becomes the new kaioshin. Blessed with the powers of a destroyer while retaining most of his kaioshin prowess in a saiyan body, Black abuses his time ring to wish for things such as... 1. Immortality 2. Complete mastery of Goku's power. Thus all of his techniques such as the kaioken and spirit bomb are enabled, not including Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue (now as Rose), and the infamous Ultra Instinct. 3. Making his apprentice a identical version of his original body, thus becoming "Zamasu." Drunk with power, Zamasu decides to to kill all mortals with his bare hands instead of using the super dragon balls. But in a act of cruelty, Zamasu wishes to have Zeno trapped in a inescapable void, which renders the Grand Priest immobilized. Pleased that the greatest powers are no longer operable, Zamasu begins to terrorize all known universes as universe 7 tries to stop him. And save their beloved Goku. I hope this little "what if" painted Zamasu a better morally grey villain than in canon. If so I did my job.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 23, 2017 5:24:51 GMT
I would not say Zamasu was morally grey at all. He basically was a really evil dude, who thought he was good. I am not sure if this truly qualifies as morally gray. People who do evil stuff thinking they're righteous in real life are some of the most dangerous. Zen Buu and specially Raichi are indeed morally gray. Perhaps, even Hit is morally gray since he's an assassin with honor. But Zamasu was basically pure schizophrenic evil. Raichi would not even dare consider himself a hero, going as far as correct other people who consider him to be so. Despite he has no issue of using the dead and committing genocides, he has indeed shown appreciation of life and being able to care for other people. Zamasu on the other hand, despite his godly mumbo jumbo was just an omnicidal maniac and a rebel without a cause. He never showed regards for other people, not even the other deities whom he was "proud" to belong to. He also showed no regards in killing his master. There was nothing he wanted to protect, and no cause to avenge. Zamasu, for me, is the most unambiguously morally black character in the entire DB franchise. Not even King Piccolo or Freeza were as evil. King Piccolo cared a lot for his subordinates and showed visible anger when they were killed. Freeza at least spared people to rule over. Zamasu? None of that. I am truly baffled people even attempt to classify him as morally gray. Even Kid Buu is more of a morally gray character than Zamasu, especially during his last moments. I think that was Beerus the Wondercat's point. Clearly Zamasu was being setup as an anti-villain who was supposed to have a bit of a point to make the conflict more gray. It failed hard and Zamasu quickly descended to the usual DB villain, of horribly monstrous and destructive. Wondercat was being cynical at Jiren not being villainous or overly evil based on how well the last attempt (Zamasu) went.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 23, 2017 5:51:11 GMT
I would not say Zamasu was morally grey at all. He basically was a really evil dude, who thought he was good. I am not sure if this truly qualifies as morally gray. People who do evil stuff thinking they're righteous in real life are some of the most dangerous. Zen Buu and specially Raichi are indeed morally gray. Perhaps, even Hit is morally gray since he's an assassin with honor. But Zamasu was basically pure schizophrenic evil. Raichi would not even dare consider himself a hero, going as far as correct other people who consider him to be so. Despite he has no issue of using the dead and committing genocides, he has indeed shown appreciation of life and being able to care for other people. Zamasu on the other hand, despite his godly mumbo jumbo was just an omnicidal maniac and a rebel without a cause. He never showed regards for other people, not even the other deities whom he was "proud" to belong to. He also showed no regards in killing his master. There was nothing he wanted to protect, and no cause to avenge. Zamasu, for me, is the most unambiguously morally black character in the entire DB franchise. Not even King Piccolo or Freeza were as evil. King Piccolo cared a lot for his subordinates and showed visible anger when they were killed. Freeza at least spared people to rule over. Zamasu? None of that. I am truly baffled people even attempt to classify him as morally gray. Even Kid Buu is more of a morally gray character than Zamasu, especially during his last moments. I think that was Beerus the Wondercat's point. Clearly Zamasu was being setup as an anti-villain who was supposed to have a bit of a point to make the conflict more gray. It failed hard and Zamasu quickly descended to the usual DB villain, of horribly monstrous and destructive. Wondercat was being cynical at Jiren not being villainous or overly evil based on how well the last attempt (Zamasu) went. I do not think this was even tried at all, that was my point. Nothing truly showed he was trying to be shown like this. What made people even think so? Kaioshins = Usually goody-goody two shoes? That simply does not suffice nor does point out they were trying to make him "gray". Belonging to a generally well natured race, despite being mentally unstable and evil yourself does not indicate you are gray. Only someone who doesn't truly understand what "morally gray" means would think Zamasu was ever intended/sold to be that way. He wasn't. Since the first time he appeared, his evil intentions were apparent in the tea. You could argue he appeared indifferent/neutral at first, yet this doesn't exactly mean he was morally gray. TV tropes says this about "Gray and grey morality" Zamasu never showed any of that. He had 0 sympathetic traits since the beginning. He was already an evil, twisted dude all along, who at first managed to contain it, but then it exploded and went full schizophrenic and omnicidal. More often than not, "morally gray" is used for an hostile antagonist whom you can still relate too, due to many positive traits. Zamasu never had any positive trait.
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