??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Nov 23, 2017 6:11:17 GMT
I think that was Beerus the Wondercat's point. Clearly Zamasu was being setup as an anti-villain who was supposed to have a bit of a point to make the conflict more gray. It failed hard and Zamasu quickly descended to the usual DB villain, of horribly monstrous and destructive. Wondercat was being cynical at Jiren not being villainous or overly evil based on how well the last attempt (Zamasu) went. I do not think this was even tried at all, that was my point. Nothing truly showed he was trying to be shown like this. What made people even think so? Kaioshins = Usually goody-goody two shoes? That simply does not suffice nor does point out they were trying to make him "gray". Belonging to a generally well natured race, despite being mentally unstable and evil yourself does not indicate you are gray. I think the whole reason we even got that scene where Zamasu and his master looked at that primitive race that ended up destroying themselves in the future was meant to show Zamasu had a point about mortals shortcomings. There is no reason for that scene at all if there wasn't at least an attempt to make Zamasu an anti-villain and make the audience question if he had a point. If Zamasu was just supposed to be a regular DB villain then there doesn't need to be a reason why he kills mortals. Why even show that scene where mortals failed to move beyond their flaws and end up destroying themselves if it wasn't meant to make a point? I think Zamasu was by a truly evil villain and turned out one dimensional, but I think largely because of poor writing that ended up failing to make him the anti-villain who had positive traits and a reasonable goal he went about the wrong way than the writers intending him to be a typical villain.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 23, 2017 6:52:55 GMT
I do not think this was even tried at all, that was my point. Nothing truly showed he was trying to be shown like this. What made people even think so? Kaioshins = Usually goody-goody two shoes? That simply does not suffice nor does point out they were trying to make him "gray". Belonging to a generally well natured race, despite being mentally unstable and evil yourself does not indicate you are gray. I think the whole reason we even got that scene where Zamasu and his master looked at that primitive race that ended up destroying themselves in the future was meant to show Zamasu had a point about mortals shortcomings. There is no reason for that scene at all if there wasn't at least an attempt to make Zamasu an anti-villain and make the audience question if he had a point. If Zamasu was just supposed to be a regular DB villain then there doesn't need to be a reason why he kills mortals. Why even show that scene where mortals failed to move beyond their flaws and end up destroying themselves if it wasn't meant to make a point? I think Zamasu was by a truly evil villain and turned out one dimensional, but I think largely because of poor writing that ended up failing to make him the anti-villain who had positive traits and a reasonable goal he went about the wrong way than the writers intending him to be a typical villain. The manga invalidated his point, because it actually shows those barbarians developing some sort of civilization, farming, musical instruments and even a religious leader (who calmed them all just before Zamasu slashed that dude). Besides, even without that, it doesn't make any valid point. Because we all know not all mortals are like this. This "point" you're talking about is like visiting the worst ghetto in Detroit and therefore concluding "all black people are shit" and wanting to kill everyone with black skin thereafter, even if they are completely unrelated and have a wholly different culture than those in the Detroit ghetto. Thus, this still isn't any "morally gray point" either. It only makes him more evil, since that's a clear sign of omnicidial racism and extrapolation. The manga goes further on this because Zamasu was unable to see the positive traits they had, and overlooked their evolution, however minor it was. Basically, he only used confirmation bias to further justify his evil acts in his mind. He only saw what he wanted to see (selective evidence) and thus decided all mortals (and GoDs) should die. I do not think they were even trying to make him "gray" at all because DBZ/DBS already had morally gray characters: Pilaf Gang (even if they were a joke they fit this classification), The present time Androids (A17/A16/A18), The Fat Majin Buu we first saw (before meeting Mr Satan), Beerus (on Battle of the Gods) and Hit. Zamasu was more a case of "the worst evil is done by those who do so thinking they're doing good" or "true evil can come from the places you least expect it to be".
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Nov 23, 2017 8:07:54 GMT
I gotta side with Conqueror Geng on this one. Zamasu was basically like Marvel's Magneto, except without any of the tragic Holocaust backstory and current day prejudices against mutants that makes his motivations understandable even if his methods are disagreeable. Zamasu just hates NINGEN. He doesn't even have any of the petty vengeance on Goku motivation that he did in the anime since he never even met him until the body swap in the manga, all he did was hear about how he helped stop Buu and watched some Godtube. From the beginning he just deemed NINGEN as "unnecessary" and a mess to be "cleaned up". His reaction to seeing two, JUST TWO, of those dinosaur NINGEN fighting each other was to immediately suggest genocide on all of them.He professes that the current status quo doesn't have enough "order" bur rather than go Knight's Templar on them like Assassin's Creed or something, where they try to manipulate world events in order to attain total control and supposedly use that control for humanity's betterment, his solution is to literally be a hypocrite and be worse than the NINGEN he's complaining about and start killing off everyone, NINGEN and gods alike. He claims that mortals always destroy the environment, their "precious planets", but one look at the world of Future Trunks shows devastation on a scale not seen since the Androids. These aren't the actions of a morally gray person. That's a morally black (pun intended) person. It's even in his other name, Goku Black. Zamasu in the end was always just a petty, power-hungry person who wanted to impose his will on existence and crush everything beneath his heel. Zamasu has been nothing but death, death and more death. Even Frieza spared people. Heck, he even considered recruiting Nail at one point. Even Super Buu possessed a tiny, minuscule shred of goodness that kept him from killing off *every* human, just most of them. The villain he's most comparable to is Perfect Cell, who was just going to blow up the Earth and kill everyone anyway, but even then the scale of Zamasu's actions were on a whole far larger than Cell's pedantic threats of simply destroying the Earth. In terms of villainy Zamasu has been the most evil of them all from the beginning.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Nov 25, 2017 4:25:44 GMT
I agree he is a black villain and one dimensional. I don't know you might be right, but Zamasu for me had all the tell tale signs of writers who thought they would make a anti-villain/grayer villain, only to fuck it up by putting so much emphasis on the villainous actions that it hardly seemed like the character was ever meant to be good. Magneto example, in the right hands he can be a very complex and anti-villain who has a good cause, just goes about it the wrong way. At the same time in the wrong hands he comes off as very one dimensional and like a huge hypocritical and dangerous tyrant. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen writers get characterization right once and only mess up later on.
17 and 18 are great examples of that. They are great gray villains, but that gets chalked up to Toriyama replacing them as the main antagonists with the far worse Cell. They ended up never being the main villains while trying to retain their positive and negative traits. A huge mistake I've seen in modern stories is when making a major villain, especially one who wants to destroy the world or humanity for the greater good is that they put so much emphasis on the villainous actions and not enough on the positives. Considering how much DB has messed up in characterization it wouldn't surprised me if the different type of villain Toriyama was going for with Zamasu was his take on modern anti-villain and stumble it up and unintentional do what he was always best at, making crazy and destructive villain.
Even Beerus IMO is a very mixed result that comes about more on who is writing him and what they need him for. BoG movie he seemed to operate more as a chaotic force who was both good and evil at times. The first arc in Super had upped his sinister side to the point that we saw him destroy planets for more petty reasons than Freeza did and made him out to be more of a bully who occasionally charmed. The U6 arc showed him to be amoral and caring far better, while Zamasu arc showed him to be as incompetent as Shin (he let Buu kill his lifelines without ever knowing about it). I can see it go either way here on Zamasu was meant to be deconstruction of the anti-villain (which seems way too competent for Super IMO) or a badly done version the anti-villain.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 25, 2017 5:51:13 GMT
I agree he is a black villain and one dimensional. I don't know you might be right, but Zamasu for me had all the tell tale signs of writers who thought they would make a anti-villain/grayer villain, only to fuck it up by putting so much emphasis on the villainous actions that it hardly seemed like the character was ever meant to be good. Magneto example, in the right hands he can be a very complex and anti-villain who has a good cause, just goes about it the wrong way. At the same time in the wrong hands he comes off as very one dimensional and like a huge hypocritical and dangerous tyrant. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen writers get characterization right once and only mess up later on. 17 and 18 are great examples of that. They are great gray villains, but that gets chalked up to Toriyama replacing them as the main antagonists with the far worse Cell. They ended up never being the main villains while trying to retain their positive and negative traits. A huge mistake I've seen in modern stories is when making a major villain, especially one who wants to destroy the world or humanity for the greater good is that they put so much emphasis on the villainous actions and not enough on the positives. Considering how much DB has messed up in characterization it wouldn't surprised me if the different type of villain Toriyama was going for with Zamasu was his take on modern anti-villain and stumble it up and unintentional do what he was always best at, making crazy and destructive villain. Even Beerus IMO is a very mixed result that comes about more on who is writing him and what they need him for. BoG movie he seemed to operate more as a chaotic force who was both good and evil at times. The first arc in Super had upped his sinister side to the point that we saw him destroy planets for more petty reasons than Freeza did and made him out to be more of a bully who occasionally charmed. The U6 arc showed him to be amoral and caring far better, while Zamasu arc showed him to be as incompetent as Shin (he let Buu kill his lifelines without ever knowing about it). I can see it go either way here on Zamasu was meant to be deconstruction of the anti-villain (which seems way too competent for Super IMO) or a badly done version the anti-villain. There are two further additional things to take into account regarding Zamasu (and Goku Black too): He is mainly inspired by the antagonists of these mangas DBAF (the one Toyotaro did of course, notably in regards to Zamasu and Merged Zamasu) and the other from DB EX (Another fanmanga where an evil spirit possesses Goku). Both of these antagonists were pretty unambiguously black, not gray. Inspiration for Goku Black: I don't know but this seems pretty evilz to me. And now, the inspiration for Zamasu and Merged Zamasu: Also, quite generic evilz. Combine both of them and remove some generic fan-ficish stuff (though not all!) and you have Goku Black/Zamasu saga. Evilz to the square, pitch black. Not gray at all.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Azoth on Nov 27, 2017 9:31:07 GMT
I do agree with the idea that Zamasu was intended to be a "gray" villain, but he very clearly didn't turn out that way. We needed a lot more time with him, exploring his motivations, and possibly even what he was like as a kaio to understand why he became what he did.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 27, 2017 10:39:45 GMT
I do agree with the idea that Zamasu was intended to be a "gray" villain, but he very clearly didn't turn out that way. We needed a lot more time with him, exploring his motivations, and possibly even what he was like as a kaio to understand why he became what he did. Why? For you to agree with that notion, you'd have to ignore all my posts in the previous 2 pages. -Most people are not understanding what "gray" truly means. An evil individual inside a mostly good race does not make one "gray" or that there was the intention to do so. -Zamasu and Goku Black were inspired by two, out of the blue "haha so evilz, true terror" fanfic-tier characters -We already knew Zamasu was up to no good even before he was introduced, since we knew Trunks' timeline was already wrecked, and that Black had killed Bulma just for pure evilz shock factor (certainly, it can be reduced to this.) He was never intended to be gray at all. He was purposely designed to be the most unambiguously evil DB character even made, with some twists of irony. This was consistent in both Anime and Manga. Greatest evil omnicide coming from the gods who are supposed to protect and care for life. A god who hates mortals, yet still had to borrow a mortal body to kill other gods.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Kirasha on Nov 27, 2017 11:34:32 GMT
Yeah, Zamasu doesn't fit the "Gray Villain" role at all, nothing about him does.
Right down from the beginning, he saw Mortals as a bad thing, as something that should be intervened against, he saw no redeeming factors in them. As the story progressed, this aspect of his only became greater, Mortals were a plague, they needed to be eradicated. For this he was willing to kill his mentor, the one that took him in as a student. For this he was willing to kill the other Kais, so to kill the GoDs linked to them, so that he could go on freely with his mortal killing spree. There was never a gray area, it was black all the way. And perhaps that is also where Goku Black's name comes from, as a moniker to show that he is pure evil. He's certainly not called Goku Gray, that Black part was used on purpose.
For Zamasu to have been a gray villain, he would need to have moral conflict, he would have needed to see, to realize, that not all mortals were bad. He would have had to understand, that not all mortals are the same, that some are good. He could have been a pessimist about it, to fear that all mortals will fall down the same path, but he would need to know that mortals do have a good side to them. But he didn't, he saw no redemption in them, no difference, all were the same and his only goal was to kill them all.
In all honesty, I still do not see how some people proclaim Zamasu to be one of the best Villains in DB's history, because he really isn't. He's far from it really. He was just a Kai that was inexplicably evil without any form of redemption. I would have liked it better if Zamasu could have been redeemed as a character, to have been shown the error of his ways, perhaps then he would've been a better villain, but all he really was, was ego-maniac No. ##, and we've had several of those already.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Azoth on Nov 27, 2017 20:21:00 GMT
No, you're right, I confused his potential with reality. He's as deep as the usual JRPG villain. Also, can I just point out how fucking stupid Xicor's design is? All those spikes, in places there's no need to have spikes...
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Nov 28, 2017 20:24:24 GMT
I do agree with the idea that Zamasu was intended to be a "gray" villain, but he very clearly didn't turn out that way. We needed a lot more time with him, exploring his motivations, and possibly even what he was like as a kaio to understand why he became what he did. Why? For you to agree with that notion, you'd have to ignore all my posts in the previous 2 pages. -Most people are not understanding what "gray" truly means. An evil individual inside a mostly good race does not make one "gray" or that there was the intention to do so. -Zamasu and Goku Black were inspired by two, out of the blue "haha so evilz, true terror" fanfic-tier characters -We already knew Zamasu was up to no good even before he was introduced, since we knew Trunks' timeline was already wrecked, and that Black had killed Bulma just for pure evilz shock factor (certainly, it can be reduced to this.) He was never intended to be gray at all. He was purposely designed to be the most unambiguously evil DB character even made, with some twists of irony. This was consistent in both Anime and Manga. Greatest evil omnicide coming from the gods who are supposed to protect and care for life. A god who hates mortals, yet still had to borrow a mortal body to kill other gods. Maybe he wasn't intended to be a gray villain per se, but it seems clear they were going for something different than the unredeemable maniac we got. There's never been an "official" Dragon Ball villain (that didn't become a hero) whose backstory, motivations, and Start of Darkness were shown to the extent Zamasu's were. There may have been a sympathetic trait here and there, like King Piccolo caring about his children or Ginyu having at least a pretense of fighting fair or Frieza being capable of some extent of mercy, but on the whole DB baddies had no real redeeming qualities and their motivations were as flat as "I do evil things just because." I haven't read the Xicor or Evil Goku fanfics you mentioned, but I bet they're the same way. These villains are straightforwardly, even blandly evil, but you can tell that's intentional because they never get a backstory beyond "This guy is evil and really dangerous." (Sorry, Roketto, but Frieza isn't a tragic villain without supplying quite a lot of fanfic.) While Zamasu was also straightforwardly, blandly evil, I doubt this was intended, mainly because he's different from the other guys. We get introduced to him as a polite, hardworking, innocent young Kaioshin, we see he's concerned with a problem around him, we see him deliberate and come to a decision on how to solve it, and we see him get two different chances to stop and redeem himself, once when caught by Beerus and once when confronted by Gowasu. He's got a bunch more sympathetic qualities than other DBZ villains--at least at first--and his Start of Villainy is due to a moral question. It'd be easier for me to believe he was intended as a full-on cartoonishly evil villain if he'd been bad all along, always planning on offing Gowasu, always planning on killing the gods. But he wasn't written that way. So while ultimately he was incredibly un-nuanced and evil, there's a difference in how he was presented compared to Frieza, Cell, or Buu, and that makes me wonder why. I think they might've been trying for a "cry for the devil" situation, kind of like what George Lucas was shooting for with Anakin in Episode III. They made the exact same mistake Lucas did, though: the villain wasn't that likable to being with, his issue is so comparatively silly, and his actions so drastic, that the audience's response isn't pity but "what an idiot." Sorry, we just can't relate to Anakin going "Oh no, my wife's dying, better go kill kids." Similarly, we can't see Zamasu as tragic when he goes "Mortals are ruining the universe! I'll steal a mortal's body, kill all the gods, kill everyone, and wreck their planets while I'm at it!" So the problem is partly that Toriyama/Toei simply can't do nuance in their writing. (Toyotaro's a bit better with this, if we look at how he's portrayed the Pride Troopers compared to the anime.) Zamasu is also a victim of Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro trying to stuff too many incompatible ideas into the same saga. By the way--if you're still with me--I totally agree that the only DB villain that matches Zamasu for evilness is Cell. Frieza could be merciful to an extent, and didn't want to kill everything; Buu was insane. Both Cell and Zamasu, however, are rational beings who conclude "I am the only thing worth existing" and took pleasure in doing it, so that makes them the worst in my opinion. *** My question is, how the heck did Zamasu get all the way to North Kai and then Kaioshin apprentice without ever bumping into mortals? Did his section of the galaxy only have rocks or something?
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 28, 2017 20:37:22 GMT
Ashanark I think of a bit of "shadowy" or "hidden" feelings were attempted, but that's about it. Otherwise a blatantly evil "bwahaha" Kaioshin with zero explanation would have been truly misplaced. No reason to even choose him to be in charge of the universe if he was rampantly evil like Goku Black was. So, the easiest way was to make him all evil since the beginning but with lots of restraint. I think they were going also with some "power doesn't corrupt you, only makes the inner corruption you already have truly shine". Still, it makes no sense to perceive a character as gray (or perceive it to be intended that way) when we were shown Trunks' timeline looking worse than in Future Gohan special, when Bulma was just killed for no other reason at all other than to show the villain was "truly evilz". This was before Zamasu was introduced, even, so I am not sure why everyone got this gray idea. One needs to deliberately forget these opening scenes to reach this conclusion. And yeah, when you take the main idea from two generic fanfic villains, it obviously can't turn out too gray. Maybe I am too exigent now, given that I recently binged Hunter X Hunter, where most if not all of the characters (even the most evil villains) have some shade of gray or redeeming/humanizing quality of some bizarre sort, and most of the protagonists aren't exactly angels either. All in all, I think people are perceiving what they wanted to see as opposed that what we were shown, or even what they truly intended to show us. I immediately recognized the DBEX/Xicor references so I wasn't exactly expecting a good/mislead guy who just happened to be really radical in his ideologies, but some generic-tier fanfic villain. Also, the sequence was the opposite. When Magneto was first introduced he appeared as an unambiguously evil dude. "Brotherhood of EVIL Mutants" and all that stuff. It was only as the story progressed (either normally or by flashbacks) that we slowly found him to be more justified, humane and likable. When a gray character is introduced in this kind of media, they make him appear unlikable but somehow mysterious. With Zamasu (not counting Black's first apparition) it was the opposite. He was "contained" evilz but then it totally went out of control. As the history progressed, he only became crazier and crazier.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Nov 28, 2017 22:23:37 GMT
Why? For you to agree with that notion, you'd have to ignore all my posts in the previous 2 pages. -Most people are not understanding what "gray" truly means. An evil individual inside a mostly good race does not make one "gray" or that there was the intention to do so. -Zamasu and Goku Black were inspired by two, out of the blue "haha so evilz, true terror" fanfic-tier characters -We already knew Zamasu was up to no good even before he was introduced, since we knew Trunks' timeline was already wrecked, and that Black had killed Bulma just for pure evilz shock factor (certainly, it can be reduced to this.) He was never intended to be gray at all. He was purposely designed to be the most unambiguously evil DB character even made, with some twists of irony. This was consistent in both Anime and Manga. Greatest evil omnicide coming from the gods who are supposed to protect and care for life. A god who hates mortals, yet still had to borrow a mortal body to kill other gods. Maybe he wasn't intended to be a gray villain per se, but it seems clear they were going for something different than the unredeemable maniac we got. There's never been an "official" Dragon Ball villain (that didn't become a hero) whose backstory, motivations, and Start of Darkness were shown to the extent Zamasu's were. There may have been a sympathetic trait here and there, like King Piccolo caring about his children or Ginyu having at least a pretense of fighting fair or Frieza being capable of some extent of mercy, but on the whole DB baddies had no real redeeming qualities and their motivations were as flat as "I do evil things just because." I haven't read the Xicor or Evil Goku fanfics you mentioned, but I bet they're the same way. These villains are straightforwardly, even blandly evil, but you can tell that's intentional because they never get a backstory beyond "This guy is evil and really dangerous." (Sorry, Roketto, but Frieza isn't a tragic villain without supplying quite a lot of fanfic.) While Zamasu was also straightforwardly, blandly evil, I doubt this was intended, mainly because he's different from the other guys. We get introduced to him as a polite, hardworking, innocent young Kaioshin, we see he's concerned with a problem around him, we see him deliberate and come to a decision on how to solve it, and we see him get two different chances to stop and redeem himself, once when caught by Beerus and once when confronted by Gowasu. He's got a bunch more sympathetic qualities than other DBZ villains--at least at first--and his Start of Villainy is due to a moral question. It'd be easier for me to believe he was intended as a full-on cartoonishly evil villain if he'd been bad all along, always planning on offing Gowasu, always planning on killing the gods. But he wasn't written that way. So while ultimately he was incredibly un-nuanced and evil, there's a difference in how he was presented compared to Frieza, Cell, or Buu, and that makes me wonder why. I think they might've been trying for a "cry for the devil" situation, kind of like what George Lucas was shooting for with Anakin in Episode III. They made the exact same mistake Lucas did, though: the villain wasn't that likable to being with, his issue is so comparatively silly, and his actions so drastic, that the audience's response isn't pity but "what an idiot." Sorry, we just can't relate to Anakin going "Oh no, my wife's dying, better go kill kids." Similarly, we can't see Zamasu as tragic when he goes "Mortals are ruining the universe! I'll steal a mortal's body, kill all the gods, kill everyone, and wreck their planets while I'm at it!" So the problem is partly that Toriyama/Toei simply can't do nuance in their writing. (Toyotaro's a bit better with this, if we look at how he's portrayed the Pride Troopers compared to the anime.) Zamasu is also a victim of Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro trying to stuff too many incompatible ideas into the same saga. By the way--if you're still with me--I totally agree that the only DB villain that matches Zamasu for evilness is Cell. Frieza could be merciful to an extent, and didn't want to kill everything; Buu was insane. Both Cell and Zamasu, however, are rational beings who conclude "I am the only thing worth existing" and took pleasure in doing it, so that makes them the worst in my opinion. *** My question is, how the heck did Zamasu get all the way to North Kai and then Kaioshin apprentice without ever bumping into mortals? Did his section of the galaxy only have rocks or something? This pretty much what I was getting at. I see Khan’s point of view. Like I said earlier he may even be right, but at the same time a lot of works they screw up trying to make a layered, gray, or morally complex character and make them badly like Zamasu. The latest Marvel show Inhumans did that with Maximus the Mad. Naruto tried it with a few of its villains that didn’t pan out. To me Black seemed like a typical villain when the first chapter came out. The Zamasu and his master scenes are what made me pause since it seemed like standard manga/anime standard of introducing horribly evil villain first than explain their actions or reasoning to it and make them more complex or less evil etc. Depending on how the writing goes it can either turn out really good or fail miserably and have a Zamasu. It wouldn’t be the first time Toriyama screwed up or not follow through on a plot. Buu arc theme of next generation ended up going nowhere because he felt Gohan wasn’t a strong enough lead. That ignores how he failed to capitalize on Gohan’s difference from Goku to make him his own different lead . Who can forget the infamous there was never a female Super Saiyan originally because I cannot picture how one would look. To me it felt as nature for Toriyama to try something different only to change his mind in the end and not go anywhere with it.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 2:39:38 GMT
I got caught up with the last three chapters of the manga: -The battle royale between the Gods of Destruction was really interesting. I like how they all developed their own unique abilities. -I kinda preferred anime Toppo over the manga version with his Justice-themed moves. He reminded me of The Tick and a parody of the classic Superhero. -Jiren had more of a personality in a few pages than in the entire anime so far. I think it contradicts his characterization in the anime though. He mentioned returning to U11 if there was any danger. If this is part of the outline and not just for the manga then why has he wasted so much time meditating and standing around? Why not eliminate everyone else quickly so he could return to protecting his universe as soon as possible? I'll have to wait and see how Jiren is portrayed in the tournament itself. -The 28 planets thing is still in there. I'm pretty sure there were more than 28 alien species that worked until Freeza. It's possible the majority of them had their home planets wiped out like Planet Vegeta and Freeza spared some of the criminals or soldiers to work for him. -The way Goku is portrayed is a little better than the anime but I suppose it's more of an argument which is less worse. I'd still choose Adult GT Goku over the DBS Goku's. He did something that has went over the heads of these new writers: mature with age! Regardless of how ridiculous a fictional universe is, I think it helps the characters appear more "real" if they actually mature as they get older, gain a better understanding of themselves and the world, overcome their flaws, etc. If Goku is stupider/less mature now in his 40's than he was in his 20's then something isn't right here. -Reaction to the following all being filler: the "Goku is evil" scenes with him standing there like a brickwall, Goku "learning" the importance of teamwork by turning SSJB against Krillin and having #18 save him, the perfect ki control of SSJB that apparently allows it to be suppressed to any level yet is later revealed that it still drains energy like it always had, and all the other screwy power scaling/characterization during the recruitment episodes: I mean I'm really glad it's not from Toriyama but I'm curious who at Toei thought these were a good idea. If I worked at Toei, I would fire this group of new writers and make it a requirement to read the source material before joining. By "fire" I just mean ban them from working on Dragonball and let them focus on other anime they've worked on before. This is the worst and most frustrating kind of filler in my opinion. Filler is considered bad when it drags on or doesn't add anything noteworthy to the overall narrative but it's even worse when it contradicts the main story, previous character development, etc. It could be argued that these aren't the absolute worst instances of filler ever but to me that's like saying "Oops I stepped in dog poop! Oh well at least it's not the biggest pile of shit I've encountered". You could always just avoid the shit altogether and keep moving. I'm looking forward to seeing how Toyotaro handles the tournament and hoping some of the worst part end up also being anime-only.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Dec 3, 2017 3:16:14 GMT
-The way Goku is portrayed is a little better than the anime but I suppose it's more of an argument which is less worse. I'd still choose Adult GT Goku over the DBS Goku's. He did something that has went over the heads of these new writers: mature with age! Regardless of how ridiculous a fictional universe is, I think it helps the characters appear more "real" if they actually mature as they get older, gain a better understanding of themselves and the world, overcome their flaws, etc. If Goku is stupider/less mature now in his 40's than he was in his 20's then something isn't right here. I think the problem with DBS (both anime and manga) is that it isn't doing any major character progression and is instead a bunch of nostalgia and "greatest hits" of DB. Sure we get something new and cool every now and then like Beerus or Hit, but when it comes to the main cast it's lacking. - Remember the Mafuba? THAT WAS COOL RIGHT, HERE'S THE MAFUBA. YEAH SURE IT FAILED, BUT WHATEVS. - Remember Kaioken? WELL NOW IT'S GOD KAIOKEN. - Remember how Vegeta is always one step behind Goku and is always angry about it? WELL THAT'S STILL HAPPENING. Just ignore that he moved on already! - You guys liked Future Trunks, right? LOOK THERE HE IS. MUCH AMAZING, SUCH WOW. He...ends up not really doing anything but THERE HE IS! THAT'S COOL RIGHT? - Broly POWER MAXIMUM? We got you fam. - Frieza, Frieza, FRIEZAAAAAAAAAAA. - Hahaha. Remember how Goku's an idiot because he lived in the woods and basically raised himself as a child and has no real social knowledge? Look, now he doesn't know how babies are born! Or what kisses are! - So you know how Gohan slacked off after Cell and regretted it because he didn't have enough power for Buu? Well he kind of did it again. - Roshi's character arc was completed decades ago, but let's drag him out of retirement again for a contest he's hopelessly outclassed in for some fanservice. Same for other characters. And so forth.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 15, 2017 1:12:06 GMT
And Uub has finally been depicted in DBS manga. He already was mentioned by Kami Dende when Goku looked for A17, but he was not displayed. Damn, he already looks older than Goten and Trunks: So now, it's pretty obvious they do not intend to disregard the End of Z. End of Z is definitively still happening at this point. I do not know if they intend to surparss it, but makes even less sense now. Even if Uub had full Kid Buu or even Super Buu strength, it'd be nothing now.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 2:44:46 GMT
Link to the full chapter. There don't seem to be many changes from the anime aside from there being less filler. Some translations from Herms: -"Like the anime, Goku lies about tournament contestants getting 10 million zenny apiece. 18 has talked with 17 on the phone about his new job, but doesn't know exactly where he is. Kuririn suggests asking Dende." I don't see the point of lying to them. Is Krillin really going to decline if Goku told him the truth? He's going to find it out eventually so there's no point in letting it be a surprise. I'm glad they skipped the sparing match between Goku and Krillin at least. We already know that the humans have to rely on strategy to offer any help so we didn't need that scene that only made Goku look like an even bigger idiot. -"17 explains that he could see and hear Goku while he was inside Cell. Guess that settles that, then." I remember #18 was surprised when she later found out that Gohan defeated Cell so I don't think she heard what was going on. She was also unconscious when she was spit out. When #17 said he remembered Goku's voice during that one panel in the Buu saga, I assumed Gero had recordings of Goku programmed into the cyborgs so that they could identify him for their mission. -"The chapter ends with Piccolo asking Goku for lots of senzu. Not for the tournament (they're banned, anyway) but to help him beat Gohan back into shape. "Do you think we can win without him?" Goku has no faith in Gohan XP. I wonder if they'll still make him team captain here. -#17 getting a lot stronger seems to part of Toriyama's outline. While being SSJ3 tier isn't as bad as being equal to some undefined suppressed level of SSJB, it still doesn't make sense to me how he could improve so much. Goku trained in Other World for seven years and two transformations to reach that power while Vegeta trained in high gravity for seven years and a few years after that but never unlocked SSJ3. #17 beats up a few poachers and apparently does some occasional training on his own in normal gravity to reach SSJ3?? Future #17 was older when he was killed but he barely got any stronger since his release. Imagine how screwed Future Trunks would've been if #17 took a break from killing humans and decided to train every once in a while. I don't think #17's power-up was even necessary based on his performance in the ToP since the contestants he eliminated seemed to be mostly fodder or barely SSJ.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Xeno Black on Dec 15, 2017 3:03:48 GMT
I like how this chapter reveals two things: Uub and 17's immediate resurrection after the Cell Games. Too bad no proper translation has been released yet, but the actual scans are doing wonders so far. And my dog 17 has improved too. Here he can go toe to toe against Goku even as a super saiyan 3. So far it is unknown if he can go against Goku Blue with his powered lowered, but at least 17 will be among the strongest during the tournament of power. This alone makes me happy. He is one of the few consistently good things about Super. And Majin Buu appears to be asleep....permanently for the time being. I assume that Frieza will take his place just like the anime. So much for seeing Slim Buu taking out the fodder foes in the ToP.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Dec 15, 2017 3:41:24 GMT
Seeing Toyotaro's art makes me realize just how off-model the characters in Super are. I think it's the faces--Toyotaro's got the spacings right--but in general his art looks just like Toriyama's. Super's...doesn't. It's like me drawing in Toriyama's style--you can see what I'm going for, but the execution is just poor enough that I can't fool you as the real thing. Toyotaro is good enough. Also, what the Uub? Now I'm interested! It'll be darkly fascinating, seeing what kind of baloney they have to pull in order to maneuver everybody into their EoZ positions. P.S. glad they remembered Uub is a big brother -#17 getting a lot stronger seems to part of Toriyama's outline. I'm not so sure. Ever since the reveal that it was Toyotaro's idea to beef up Merged Zamasu's power and put Vegito in "for the fans," I've been wondering just how much influence he has on the overall story, even for the manga. Toriyama has forgotten or might-as-well-have-forgotten so many characters even when he was writing Z that I highly doubt he would've remembered 17 after two decades, let alone boosted him up to SS3 level, unless he was reminded of the character first. It's still definitely possible to me that he put that in the outline and I would believe it if it was confirmed, but from what I know of Toyotaro I can easily see him wanting to bring 17 back and give him a power boost to be decently relevant. I do agree though, while it's less of a bogus powerup than it was, and better compared to Super's other powerups--SS1+ to SS3 in 10-ish years isn't as bad as Frieza's SS1 to SSB in four months--it's still stupid.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 5:01:28 GMT
I'm not so sure. Ever since the reveal that it was Toyotaro's idea to beef up Merged Zamasu's power and put Vegito in "for the fans," I've been wondering just how much influence he has on the overall story, even for the manga. Toriyama has forgotten or might-as-well-have-forgotten so many characters even when he was writing Z that I highly doubt he would've remembered 17 after two decades, let alone boosted him up to SS3 level, unless he was reminded of the character first. It's still definitely possible to me that he put that in the outline and I would believe it if it was confirmed, but from what I know of Toyotaro I can easily see him wanting to bring 17 back and give him a power boost to be decently relevant. I do agree though, while it's less of a bogus powerup than it was, and better compared to Super's other powerups--SS1+ to SS3 in 10-ish years isn't as bad as Frieza's SS1 to SSB in four months--it's still stupid. I hope that's the case because I don't think any of his battles in the ToP have really required to be much stronger than he was during the Cell saga. Based on how much was added/changed in the Goku Black saga by Toei and Toyotaro, I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama only wrote the general premise of this saga and outcome of a few major battles then let them handle the rest. We'll probably find out in future interviews featured in the manga volumes. It's fun to compare the manga and anime to see how much has been added by Toei. The preliminary round and recruitment took 20 episodes in the anime while the manga covered a more interesting preliminary round, has recruited most of the U7 team, and had time to spare to let us learn more about Jiren within only five chapters. That gives an idea of how much filler there was in the anime! I'm guessing next chapter we see Freeza get recruited and result of Gohan's training with Piccolo. I think he'll either have the tournament begin the following chapter or dedicate a chapter exploring some of the other universes.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Symbiotic on Dec 15, 2017 8:18:20 GMT
-"17 explains that he could see and hear Goku while he was inside Cell. Guess that settles that, then." I remember #18 was surprised when she later found out that Gohan defeated Cell so I don't think she heard what was going on. She was also unconscious when she was spit out. When #17 said he remembered Goku's voice during that one panel in the Buu saga, I assumed Gero had recordings of Goku programmed into the cyborgs so that they could identify him for their mission. -#17 getting a lot stronger seems to part of Toriyama's outline. While being SSJ3 tier isn't as bad as being equal to some undefined suppressed level of SSJB, it still doesn't make sense to me how he could improve so much. Goku trained in Other World for seven years and two transformations to reach that power while Vegeta trained in high gravity for seven years and a few years after that but never unlocked SSJ3. #17 beats up a few poachers and apparently does some occasional training on his own in normal gravity to reach SSJ3?? Future #17 was older when he was killed but he barely got any stronger since his release. Imagine how screwed Future Trunks would've been if #17 took a break from killing humans and decided to train every once in a while. I don't think #17's power-up was even necessary based on his performance in the ToP since the contestants he eliminated seemed to be mostly fodder or barely SSJ. A- Weird, but inconsequential. B- Question for you who've been keeping track, what does the timeline look like from the end of the Buu Saga to BoG and RoF? If #17 has this kind of power now he'd be a real ass to sit out the other times when having SS3 level strength or close would've come in handy. I can't find issues with how he got that boost anymore. This is Super, buying a gym membership is enough to bump you into the relevant tier. Unless your name is Gohan, then you sorta zigzag between tiers.
|
|