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Post by Son Pan on Nov 24, 2016 0:31:01 GMT
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 24, 2016 1:05:48 GMT
Man, the manga really is better than the anime. Everyone looks a lot better (especially the Saiyans), the story is a lot simpler, and certain pieces of info are dropped in better places. I like how Goku and Vegeta don't meet Black until they head into the future for the first time, and I'm looking forward to see how the manga handles the fights against Black and Zamasu. It'll probably be divided up over three more chapters at least...
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 24, 2016 3:31:11 GMT
Man people really got disappointed by this arc. I heard nothing but praise and now its arguments on rather this arc was good or sucked lol.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 14:00:27 GMT
Nice! It still included the scene revealing that Goku never kissed before :/. At least the pacing is much better! The five chapters of this saga so far cover the same story as the first ten episodes of the saga in the anime. Toyotaro recently mentioned that he'll catch up with the anime before the new saga. If the new saga is getting announced in December and will likely air in January or February that means we have two chapters (three at most) of this saga left.
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Post by Teh Jammah on Nov 24, 2016 14:41:18 GMT
So, based on this chapter I'm guessing no repeated time travel and no mafuba-based fuckery, to go with less Goku blind-idiocy (forgetting the senzu, forgetting the mafuba seal, etc). So far, so good (although the 'never kissed Chi Chi' thing is still stupid).
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Post by Veya on Nov 24, 2016 14:46:43 GMT
I still choose to believe the "never kissed Chichi" thing is a complete misunderstanding of the "exact words" variety, what Goku meant is that he never saw a man initiating a kiss so it was very weird for him to see Trunks doing it, he thought it was a woman thing since Chichi was the one jumping on him for it.
When Vegeta asked if he never kissed his wife, that is correct from Goku's point of view, he never did, but Chichi kissed him.
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Post by Jaquan on Nov 24, 2016 15:48:18 GMT
Well art is good but... Did the author really had to make whole cast unable to figure stuff out by themselves? I get it giving them immediate knowledge of Black's real nature improves the pacing but... Seriously just handling them over answers because Zamasu supposedly was so skeptical he had to ask VERY specific questions hoping threatened Zuno would not warn others? I know anime has its problems but seriously there are design and plot choices that they made which for me were better than those in manga. Yes having others do couple fight with Black and try to piece it together while breaks pace kept me a bit intrigued. Here even before they meet Black they know he's Zamasu in Goku's body... Had a same feeling with Hit vs. Goku.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 17:09:16 GMT
Well art is good but... Did the author really had to make whole cast unable to figure stuff out by themselves? I get it giving them immediate knowledge of Black's real nature improves the pacing but... Seriously just handling them over answers because Zamasu supposedly was so skeptical he had to ask VERY specific questions hoping threatened Zuno would not warn others? I know anime has its problems but seriously there are design and plot choices that they made which for me were better than those in manga. Yes having others do couple fight with Black and try to piece it together while breaks pace kept me a bit intrigued. Here even before they meet Black they know he's Zamasu in Goku's body... Had a same feeling with Hit vs. Goku. I agree it probably would've been better to show Zamasu's visiting Zuno after their first trip and have Future Zamasu or Black reveal his identity. Maybe Toyotaro didn't like the idea too much so he just wanted to get the reveal over with. The problems with the anime pacing had nothing to do with how they revealed Goku Black's identity though. The saga felt like it dragged on because of the drawn out fight scenes and several trips to the future that didn't amount to anything. I'm guessing in the first trip in the manga, they'll introduce Zamasu and together him and Black will force them to retreat to the past. They decide to use Mafuba to seal Zamasu and their second trip is the last one. Hopefully no Mega USSJ Trunks or Vegetto. Just curious what did prefer about Hit vs Goku in the anime? The anime version was longer but that was due to Hit powering up a few times and Goku using Kaioken. I preferred the manga version because it implied Hit was weaker than SSJB so he had to rely on his timeskip to give him a speed advantage. The anime implied that Hit at full power was still stronger than Goku with Kaioken x10 since he survived some hits from Goku.
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Nov 24, 2016 18:52:13 GMT
Well, i will always love the manga before the anime. If only they could just follow as close as the manga...
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Post by Jaquan on Nov 24, 2016 21:42:10 GMT
Just curious what did prefer about Hit vs Goku in the anime? The anime version was longer but that was due to Hit powering up a few times and Goku using Kaioken. I preferred the manga version because it implied Hit was weaker than SSJB so he had to rely on his timeskip to give him a speed advantage. The anime implied that Hit at full power was still stronger than Goku with Kaioken x10 since he survived some hits from Goku. First thing first... Hit's timeskip in the manga was directly tied to his PL vs PL of his opponent as explained by Whis That itself rendered his technique virtually useless, which did sadden me greatly since the fight ultimately turned into contest of Power. Hit was Stronger than Goku, Goku Turned Red (I do have some other objections about it but I'll elaborate on it later) so he outperformed Hit and rendered his Time Skip useless, Hit powers up surpassing Red God, Goku turns Blue ultimately surpassing Hit. No technique, no finesse. All that decided the battle was pure contest of power. However in Anime it works regardless of Their power difference and Hit WAS weaker. His whole fighting style revolved around hitting same vital spot multiple times instead of more traditional fighting style he shown in the Manga. Take note that in the anime Vegeta noted that single attack from Hit didn't hold too much power. Hit also proved to be unable to increase his strength mid fight instead choosing to try and improve his time skip. It didn't translate perfectly on the action but it seemed to me that he almost constantly used timeskip after timeskip to slowly increase its limit. Never during the fight he became stronger but his ability evolved. I always thought that reason Goku used Kaioken x10 was to increase his speed and reaction time to keep up with Hit's timeskip rather than simply became stronger than him. I also liked the fact he still remained mostly silent and his change in attitude and enjoying the battle were mostly shown by small smirk or death glare he sent to Champa when latter suggested Hit to avoid fight and wait till Blue Kaioken runs out. Now as I promised I'll elaborate on why I don't think Goku going Red God should even work. It's what happened in the Battle of Gods. Goku ran out of time on SSG yet as noted by Beerus he barely lost any energy. Even Goku himself didn't feel much difference not even realizing he ran out of time. Didn't Beerus stated at that time that Goku somehow absorbed power of SSG and added it to his base form? If so how would transforming into Red God empower Goku in any way? I hope this answers your question. I just felt that the anime version was better crafted and for once relied more on techniques and less on power levels.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 17:02:43 GMT
That itself rendered his technique virtually useless, which did sadden me greatly since the fight ultimately turned into contest of Power. Hit was Stronger than Goku, Goku Turned Red (I do have some other objections about it but I'll elaborate on it later) so he outperformed Hit and rendered his Time Skip useless, Hit powers up surpassing Red God, Goku turns Blue ultimately surpassing Hit. No technique, no finesse. All that decided the battle was pure contest of power. I don't know I felt the two versions played out the same way but the anime version was just longer. Both featured: -Goku starting off in base and SSJ1 to learn Hit's abilities. -Goku overwhelms and outspeeds Hit's 0.1 second timeskip (with SSJG in the manga/with SSJB in the anime). -Hit powers up after that (powers-up to full strength in the manga/extends his timeskip a few times in the anime). -Goku overwhelms Hit's improved power-up (with SSJB in the manga/SSJB Kaioken x10 in the anime). -Goku gives up when he realizes that Hit can't use his most powerful and deadliest techniques. If anything the anime version was more of a contest of power because Hit was able to trade blows with SSJB Goku and then even survive several hits from Goku with Kaioken x10 while in the manga he barely survived one punch from it and had to dodge afterwards. While it wasn't directly stated, Whis's line still seemed to hold true to the anime. Hit had to keep improving and extending his timeskip because his 0.1 second timeskip was useless against Goku once Goku powered-up. That's the way I interpreted but could be wrong. I agree that's what was implied in the film version of BoG. In chapter 4 of the manga, it looks like Toyotaro changed it to where Goku used SSJG for the entire battle against Beerus and there wasn't any mention of Goku absorbing it's power. I think he did away with the God ki-powered "Saiyan Beyond God" form to make it easier to understand than the anime.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 26, 2016 21:48:30 GMT
If that is Toyotora's intent then I can see where he is coming from. Eliminating Saiyan Beyond God altogether does make the usage of SS forms make more sense. I know I was confused on why Goku and Vegeta were using SS1 at the tournament at all rather than fight in their bases. Treating SSGSS/SSB as just the form they take when they use god ki simplifies things better in the long run. I can even see why he didn't use Kaioken. Beerus is always going to remain stronger than Goku giving him access to such a powerful technique along with strongest SS form makes it harder to believe that will be true. Going by BotG Goku forced Beerus to use 70% of his power. If everything in that film remained intact Goku probably should have surpassed Beerus with Kaioken. Vegetto should have been much stronger than Beerus as well. Obviously that is not true based on Toriyama's statements on Beerus still being stronger than the heroes and villains (Vegetto and merged Zam still being inferior to him).
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Post by Andres on Dec 1, 2016 18:41:02 GMT
The pacing is so much better in the manga. I do enjoy how they present things. So differently than the anime. Whis looks a lot more composed and brainy, and Beerus, while has a much larger temper, also seems to be smarter and more pragmatic.
I really love that "This is a godly business. Do not interfere. Get the fuck outta our way" line. And punching Eastern Kai. Manga Beerus is so cool.
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Post by Symbiotic on Dec 1, 2016 19:14:28 GMT
Andres>Punching out supreme kai I need a scan of that.
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 1, 2016 19:28:00 GMT
Andres >Punching out supreme kai I need a scan of that. I think this is it. This shot of Black is also cool: Makes him look a lot more intimidating than the anime ever did.
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Post by Android 13 on Dec 1, 2016 19:38:46 GMT
Andres >Punching out supreme kai I need a scan of that. I think this is it. This shot of Black is also cool: Makes him look a lot more intimidating than the anime ever did. Dragon Ball and power scaling at it's finest once again, I hope no one EVER uses this page as a reference to Beerus's or Supreme Kai's power levels.I love those comedy moments but unbeknown to me some people actually use them for power level arguing.
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Post by Symbiotic on Dec 1, 2016 21:12:51 GMT
AshanarkYou are a (super saiyan) god for posting that. That's my new reaction image for whenever I need to poke fun at the Supreme Kai, or incompetent characters anywhere. I don't wanna sound like those shrill devils yelling about how Super is copying multiverse (or god forbid the other way round), but that Black panel is just too much like Vegito's one for my mind not to connect them. That subtext
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 1, 2016 21:16:56 GMT
While TOEI and Toriyama are likely not deeply familiar with fanmanga world (or even know about DBM), it should be very clear that Toyotaro certainly does, especially considering he in some way, was the pioneer of this "fanmade continuation of Dragon Ball world" industry with DBAF. This dude certainly has spent a good amount of his time in deviant-art and knowing other authors of doujinshis (written correctly?).
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Post by Azoth on Dec 1, 2016 22:03:35 GMT
While TOEI and Toriyama are likely not deeply familiar with fanmanga world (or even know about DBM), it should be very clear that Toyotaro certainly does, especially considering he in some way, was the pioneer of this "fanmade continuation of Dragon Ball world" industry with DBAF. This dude certainly has spent a good amount of his time in deviant-art and knowing other authors of doujinshis (written correctly?). I find this significantly more likely than Toriyama knowing what fans are up to.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 23:55:42 GMT
Toriyama mentioned he got the idea for the Goku Black saga from the editorial staff. While Toriyama himself may not read fan comics, maybe younger staff members are familiar with them? Goku Black could've been inspired by Toyotaro's Xicor. -Both were Saiyan/Kaioshin hybrids. -They turn out to be part of team and backed by an evil Kaioshin (Zamasu/West Kaioshin). -The Z fighters attempt to seal them. The staff members may have gotten the idea from AF and passed it along to Toriyama without him really knowing where it originated.
I'm curious how much of the general plot was created by Toriyama. Toei came up with BoG and the concepts for Beerus and SSJ God. RoF was inspired by a song about Freeza and pretty generic so it's pretty easy for anyone to come up with. U6 may have been the only saga that Toriyama did on his own. For all we know, maybe one of the staff members was familiar with DBM and suggested a multiverse tournament? The concept of a cross-dimensional tournament has been done before but some of the similarities could've come from DBM. According to Alexa, about 10% of DBM's traffic comes from Japan so that could translate to tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of Japanese fans. It wouldn't be hard to believe that someone at Toei, Shueisha, or Bandai has at least heard of DBM.
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