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Post by Azoth on Dec 20, 2016 9:21:23 GMT
Part of my issues with the Zamasu Saga (I mentioned them earlier in the thread, I think) were that they meandered for a while. A number of things that would have worked fine were foiled by the characters holding the idiot ball so we could get Merged Zamasu. The Vegeto retcon was unnecessary, as there already was a fusion that had a built-in time limit and we know the potara fusion can be undone by the dragonballs.
I do like that Trunks got to beat the bad guy for his timeline (mostly), but his powerups should have been explained more. Maybe he jumps into the HTC with Vegeta and trains with him, or the gang decides to give him the SSG powerup before going back. Vegeta could then teach him to master the power in the HTC, resulting in SSB Trunks (the only flaw I see with this is that Vegeta would probably want Trunks to reach such heights on his own.)
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 20, 2016 12:02:45 GMT
Trunks' power-ups really sucked. I think Toyotaro will completely do away with them. It's a shame how TOEI just shits transformations out of their asses, or directly misunderstand clear indications (Toriyama's released outline said Black should turn SSJ and also another SSJ of a slightly different color). Some numbskulls apparently understood this as "SSJ ROSE IS THE ONLY SSJ BLACK HAS" and then we got the anime.
I like that Black is weaker now. To be honest, his "insta-Zenkai ability" was completely out of control during that saga, so OP that when Merged Zamasu appeared, they had to abruptly wipe it off, as someone like this + immortality would have been complete overkill even for Vegetto. The more his power agumented the less attacks would hurt him (no Vegetto attack permanently hurt him anyway!) despite his immortality being flawed.
Black's saga although well animated, and keeping intrigue (though at a great cost) still had transpolar level asspullery. Goku's kamehameha shouldn't have been able to completely mutate Zamasu. But a "Final Kamehameha" from Vegetto Blue didn't even move him (??!?!). Toyotaro must fix this madness.
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Post by Android 13 on Dec 20, 2016 13:12:30 GMT
Trunks' power-ups really sucked. I think Toyotaro will completely do away with them. It's a shame how TOEI just shits transformations out of their asses, or directly misunderstand clear indications (Toriyama's released outline said Black should turn SSJ and also another SSJ of a slightly different color). Some numbskulls apparently understood this as "SSJ ROSE IS THE ONLY SSJ BLACK HAS" and then we got the anime. I like that Black is weaker now. To be honest, his "insta-Zenkai ability" was completely out of control during that saga, so OP that when Merged Zamasu appeared, they had to abruptly wipe it off, as someone like this + immortality would have been complete overkill even for Vegetto. The more his power agumented the less attacks would hurt him (no Vegetto attack permanently hurt him anyway!) despite his immortality being flawed. Black's saga although well animated, and keeping intrigue (though at a great cost) still had transpolar level asspullery. Goku's kamehameha shouldn't have been able to completely mutate Zamasu. But a "Final Kamehameha" from Vegetto Blue didn't even move him (??!?!). Toyotaro must fix this madness. Toei are the sole reason why I hate Dragon Ball Super, so far Toyotaro has been doing a very good job at fixing Toei's shit, but they are probably 2 separate works, and this is how I see it - Toriyama writes the script for the manga, Toei take it, make it 10 times worse, execute with a shitty animation, and then a few weeks/months later we get what we were supposed to get from Toriyama and Toyotaro.Or it could be the opposite, Toei are scripting Super entirely and lending Toriyama and Toyotaro their work, Toriyama fixes their shit and Toyotaro draws it.Either way, so far the manga has been a lot more logical, and it's plot holes are quite few.I like where things are going with the manga, and Black's power seems realistic, but I fear Vegito with a time limit is inevitable.I sure hope Vegito is the one to finish things this time around.
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Dec 20, 2016 15:51:08 GMT
When the 12 Gods of Destruction were confirmed and "revealed", two Zenos appear on the background. Damn man, I really wish the Anime would follow the Manga's route a lot more. Where? WHERE? Any links? Also, even i agree with others. Manga>>>>>>>>>Anime. Just loved it.
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Post by Android 13 on Dec 20, 2016 16:22:40 GMT
When the 12 Gods of Destruction were confirmed and "revealed", two Zenos appear on the background. Damn man, I really wish the Anime would follow the Manga's route a lot more. Where? WHERE? Any links? Also, even i agree with others. Manga>>>>>>>>>Anime. Just loved it. Here's a picture that I believe Genghis already posted.There was a black and white one, but I can't seem to find it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 16:54:52 GMT
Now I wonder why Toei never bothered using a regular SSJ Black, you'd figured that it would of been easier to explain his power increases instead of his Zenkai on crack ability they decided to give him.
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 20, 2016 19:07:23 GMT
Gogeta is a far better choice. If Zamasus fuse using god magic, then it's only more poetic that Vegeta and Goku use a mortal magic technique to attempt to defeat them. I wonder if Merged Zamasu will have some design changes? I hope he retains a bit more of Black's features. As for the lax dialogue... I think it's just that. Or a shitty translation. Toyotaro has been quite consistent with sparks and all stuff (clearly showing the difference between his SSJ1 and SSJ2 when fighting with Dabura, despite the word 'ssj2' was never mentioned. This saga has been so much better thus far. Too bad it will last very little, and likely will feel just as rushed as the anime in the end. Though I'm sure Toyotaro will be able to make it work better. I think it's cool this Zamasu has this ability to heal (is he immortal too? he must be if he thinks he can help Black against Goku and Vegeta). I am also glad Trunks is sidelined and most of the work is done by Goku and Vegeta. It's also good Bulma doesn't go to the future. And no "Mai!/Turankusu!". No mafuba shit either. And hopefully no BS-no-explanation "Super" Trunks. I also hope Trunks doesn't defeat this Merged Zamasu that Vegetto Blue wasn't even able to seriously scratch. I think Zeno wiping out the entire universe will certainly happen though. When the 12 Gods of Destruction were confirmed and "revealed", two Zenos appear on the background. Damn man, I really wish the Anime would follow the Manga's route a lot more. I agree, Gogeta would work better thematically because it's a mortal fusion technique going up against an immortal one. And it'd be better because it wouldn't need a retcon. But again, we don't know what Toriyama's outline was, so who knows what Toyotarou will do. Did Toriyama say "Black and Zamasu fuse, so Goku and Vegeta fuse to stop him?" That would leave Gogeta an option. Or did AT say "Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegito?" because that doesn't leave Gogeta open. And then again, it could be that they don't fuse at all and it instead jumps straight to Trunks using the Spirit Bomb sword. These chapters are about 41 pages long, which is almost as long as two DBM chapters. Consider just how much normally happens in two DBM chapters (except these last two, heh.) Unless Goku and Vegeta run back to the past to learn the Mafuba or maybe grab Bulma (and nothing indicates they will), there's nothing left to interrupt or slow down the fight with Black and Zamasu, and 40 pages of straight fighting is A LOT of fighting. So I think they'll start fighting, it's established Zamasu is immortal, Supreme Kai shows up, and Black and Zamasu fuse before the end of the chapter. The next chapter will have the fight against Merged Zamasu, him getting defeated, Zeno getting called, resolution of the arc, and introducing the next one. So, a list of things I'd like to know if the manga did: 1. Trunks' demigod form 2. Mafuba 3. Vegito 4. Supreme Kai and Gowasu showing up 5. Merged Zamasu 6. Two-Face Zamasu 7. Spirit Bomb Sword 8. Giygas Zamasu 9. Destruction of Trunks' timeline by Zeno I guess only #4, #5, and #9 happen. Any bets?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 20, 2016 19:41:27 GMT
Gogeta is a far better choice. If Zamasus fuse using god magic, then it's only more poetic that Vegeta and Goku use a mortal magic technique to attempt to defeat them. I wonder if Merged Zamasu will have some design changes? I hope he retains a bit more of Black's features. As for the lax dialogue... I think it's just that. Or a shitty translation. Toyotaro has been quite consistent with sparks and all stuff (clearly showing the difference between his SSJ1 and SSJ2 when fighting with Dabura, despite the word 'ssj2' was never mentioned. This saga has been so much better thus far. Too bad it will last very little, and likely will feel just as rushed as the anime in the end. Though I'm sure Toyotaro will be able to make it work better. I think it's cool this Zamasu has this ability to heal (is he immortal too? he must be if he thinks he can help Black against Goku and Vegeta). I am also glad Trunks is sidelined and most of the work is done by Goku and Vegeta. It's also good Bulma doesn't go to the future. And no "Mai!/Turankusu!". No mafuba shit either. And hopefully no BS-no-explanation "Super" Trunks. I also hope Trunks doesn't defeat this Merged Zamasu that Vegetto Blue wasn't even able to seriously scratch. I think Zeno wiping out the entire universe will certainly happen though. When the 12 Gods of Destruction were confirmed and "revealed", two Zenos appear on the background. Damn man, I really wish the Anime would follow the Manga's route a lot more. So, a list of things I'd like to know if the manga did: 1. Trunks' demigod form 2. Mafuba 3. Vegito 4. Supreme Kai and Gowasu showing up 5. Merged Zamasu 6. Two-Face Zamasu 7. Spirit Bomb Sword 8. Giygas Zamasu 9. Destruction of Trunks' timeline by Zeno I guess only #4, #5, and #9 happen. Any bets? There is only going to be only one more Zamasu chapter (Episode 20) in January, and it also starts the next saga. 1.Hopefully this will never happen (it hasn't happened yet) 2.No mentions of Mafuba were ever made (Roshi hasn't ever appeared and Piccolo just has been in the background). 3. It's hard to answer this one 4. I think Gowasu would certainly want to see Zamasu dying now, like in the anime. 5. Merged Zamasu is almost a given. Future Zamasu's ending like was "BOTH OF US ARE NEEDED TO TRULY PUT THIS PLAN IN ACTION". 6. I hope this doesn't happen. This whole transformation, although showing his mental instability as a "half devil", made little sense beyond that. 7. Hopefully not! The annoying kids and all the resistance people haven't appeared thus far. Not even Yayirobe! 8. Likely Cloud Zamasu will appear after being completely vaporized. 9. This is also likely to happen as Goku was given the same button (and when the 12 Gods of Destruction were revealed, 2 Zenos appear).
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 20, 2016 20:50:02 GMT
Part of my issues with the Zamasu Saga (I mentioned them earlier in the thread, I think) were that they meandered for a while. A number of things that would have worked fine were foiled by the characters holding the idiot ball so we could get Merged Zamasu. The Vegeto retcon was unnecessary, as there already was a fusion that had a built-in time limit and we know the potara fusion can be undone by the dragonballs. I do like that Trunks got to beat the bad guy for his timeline (mostly), but his powerups should have been explained more. Maybe he jumps into the HTC with Vegeta and trains with him, or the gang decides to give him the SSG powerup before going back. Vegeta could then teach him to master the power in the HTC, resulting in SSB Trunks (the only flaw I see with this is that Vegeta would probably want Trunks to reach such heights on his own.) I didn't get why they didn't just let Trunks undergo the god ritual from the get go. Vegeta's reasoning was stupid and hypocritical anyway. It is all fine and dandy not use the ritual on Trunks so he doesn't rely on them and can learn to overcome difficult situations on his own, but the message is completely lost when Vegeta and Goku go back to beat Black for him, because Vegeta wants to avenge Bulma's future/alternate counterpart. They are fighting Trunks' battles for him rather than giving him the tools to do so himself. I might add neither Goku nor Vegeta learned how to obtain god ki on their own. They needed the ritual or divine training to unlock and master it. Had the original plan worked and they were strong enough to kill Black before Trunks got his demi-god form Goku and Vegeta would have gone home and left Trunks to his own devices, hoping he obtains god ki on his own and that another unexpectedly powerful foe doesn't appear before he does it. While this is a hard lesson I can see them giving to Gohan, since he stopped training and is relying on stronger enemies not coming and his dad and Vegeta to handle things it seems excessively cruel one to give Trunks. Trunks kept up with his training, excelled at it, because he was the last warrior and as a result he became as powerful as the others did in the Buu arc. Black showing up is pretty much like Beerus showing up. No amount of training everyone did would have made the difference. They needed team work to try to beat Beerus. Vegeta's lesson wouldn't have been lost on Trunks if they performed the ritual on him. Trunks would have trained afterward because he is the last warrior.
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 20, 2016 21:26:27 GMT
So, a list of things I'd like to know if the manga did: 1. Trunks' demigod form 2. Mafuba 3. Vegito 4. Supreme Kai and Gowasu showing up 5. Merged Zamasu 6. Two-Face Zamasu 7. Spirit Bomb Sword 8. Giygas Zamasu 9. Destruction of Trunks' timeline by Zeno I guess only #4, #5, and #9 happen. Any bets? There is only going to be only one more Zamasu chapter (Episode 20) in January, and it also starts the next saga.
1.Hopefully this will never happen (it hasn't happened yet) 2.No mentions of Mafuba were ever made (Roshi hasn't ever appeared and Piccolo just has been in the background). 3. It's hard to answer this one 4. I think Gowasu would certainly want to see Zamasu dying now, like in the anime. 5. Merged Zamasu is almost a given. Future Zamasu's ending like was "BOTH OF US ARE NEEDED TO TRULY PUT THIS PLAN IN ACTION". 6. I hope this doesn't happen. This whole transformation, although showing his mental instability as a "half devil", made little sense beyond that. 7. Hopefully not! The annoying kids and all the resistance people haven't appeared thus far. Not even Yayirobe! 8. Likely Cloud Zamasu will appear after being completely vaporized. 9. This is also likely to happen as Goku was given the same button (and when the 12 Gods of Destruction were revealed, 2 Zenos appear). I didn't know that. They're really going to have to wrap things up quickly then, won't they? If they try to fit too much in, the story will get ridiculous, so this narrows things down a lot. They haven't set up the Mafuba and there's been no Future people to contribute to a Spirit Bomb, while they have set up for Merged Zamasu and using the Zeno Button. Unless Merged Zamasu is a big enough threat to call in Zeno from the very start, we might get a Goku/Vegeta fusion who beats Zamasu and then loses to Giygas Zamasu. One thing I noticed in the manga is that Gowasu talks a lot about U10's God of Destruction ("It's not our job to kill mortals, it's our GoD's"), but that GoD is never given a name. I hope we get to meet him/her come the tournament. Does anyone else think manga Zamasu and Black are a lot more likable than the anime versions? Zamasu was very polite, even friendly, to East Kai and Kibito, and he is also well-mannered to Beerus (until he tried to kill him, anyway.) Black is more humble, and he and Zamasu seem more like friends instead of some weird selfcest party, too.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 20, 2016 22:22:26 GMT
Only ones who didn't like the manga more are Black's fanboys who enjoyed his constant, unexplained insta-nonlethal-zenaki and his senseless pummeling of our heroes.
Everything makes much more sense. Black doesn't instantly become stronger, but Zamasu has to heal him in order to get a Zenkai.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 21, 2016 6:05:27 GMT
Where? WHERE? Any links? Also, even i agree with others. Manga>>>>>>>>>Anime. Just loved it. Here's a picture that I believe Genghis already posted.There was a black and white one, but I can't seem to find it. That colored image is totally wrong though... They made Lord Beerus look like fucking Bugs Bunny:
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Dec 21, 2016 6:16:05 GMT
Lol, the original looks better with several pillars and the background sky! The colored version looks super lame now. Was that colored by a fan or is it the real clipping from the anime? So would every 2 Haikaishin will be similar? I read somewhere that all of them will look like cats. Some variation would be nice, you know. Someone even said about the Zodiac animals, right?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 21, 2016 6:25:03 GMT
Lol, the original looks better with several pillars and the background sky! The colored version looks super lame now. Was that colored by a fan or is it the real clipping from the anime? So would every 2 Haikaishin will be similar? I read somewhere that all of them will look like cats. Some variation would be nice, you know. Someone even said about the Zodiac animals, right? Probably some fan art. I don't think the other Hakaishins will be similar. Their bodies appear radically different as well. They sure lack the rabbit-like, pointed upward ears of Beerus and Champa. I'm not even sure if all the other GoDs are actually animals or even humanoids.
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Post by Jaquan on Dec 21, 2016 16:42:55 GMT
There is one thing I didn't like about this chapter... Black seems to be VERY surprised when he sees Vegeta's God form... Taking into account he clearly did research on Goku... Wouldn't he know about God form? Why is he so surprised?
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 21, 2016 17:32:44 GMT
There is one thing I didn't like about this chapter... Black seems to be VERY surprised when he sees Vegeta's God form... Taking into account he clearly did research on Goku... Wouldn't he know about God form? Why is he so surprised? I think he knew about the god form, he just couldn't access it yet. Possibly he didn't know about Vegeta at all. Zamasu was completely obsessed with Goku and likely did not go and look up Vegeta's fights. He might be surprised that there is another mortal with god ki.
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Post by Teh Jammah on Dec 21, 2016 18:09:31 GMT
Well he did ask what timeline Goku & Vegeta were from. It's also possible he could have thought they were from the point of the timeline Trunks went back to the first time (or another pre-god ki form part)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 22:40:00 GMT
I read the new chapter and so far it's still better than the anime in my opinion! The power scaling is really confusing though. SSJ2 Trunks was able to put up a fight against SSJ3 Goku (which I thought was stupid) while SSJ1/2 Vegeta was stronger than SSJ1/2 Black who was stronger than SSJ2 Trunks in base. SSJ1/2 Vegeta > SSJ1/2 Black > base Black > SSJ2 Trunks >= SSJ3 Goku?
I'm also happy that Black has less screentime and power-ups than in the anime. I didn't like the concept of an evil Goku especially since it's not much of an evil Goku anyway. We've already had Raditz who could be an example of a Kakarotto that never hit his head and grew up to be a measly low class. Turles could be another example of Kakarotto even though he was pretty strong. Perfect Cell is probably the closest to an evil Goku since he had the same desire for a challenge but the only difference was that he was evil. Goku Black was just a guy who stole Goku's body so he should have as much in common with Goku as Ginyu did when he stole Goku's body. I still think it would've been cool if Zamasu and the U10 God of Destruction teamed up or fused together to overpower the others god so we could do aware with that whole lifelink they had.
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Post by Kat on Dec 25, 2016 22:23:03 GMT
I honestly think that manga Black not having SSJ Rose is something illogical. He's a Saiya-jin with a soul of a Shin-jin, God ki should have been something as inherent as breathing to him.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 26, 2016 1:06:01 GMT
Perhaps being in a mortal body is why Black is having difficulty? He's always been a god and had access to god ki, but never a mortal body with regular ki. He has never had to switch his ki over or access and unlock another source of ki before. When he gets a mortal body that has default setting of mortal ki he has to re-learn how to us god ki by switching over to it.
It's like learned how to do something one way and have done it all your life, but then you learn of another way to do it and it is harder because you are so used to the first way you did it.
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