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Post by Ashanark on Dec 2, 2016 0:50:21 GMT
I'm curious how much of the general plot was created by Toriyama. Toei came up with BoG and the concepts for Beerus and SSJ God. RoF was inspired by a song about Freeza and pretty generic so it's pretty easy for anyone to come up with. U6 may have been the only saga that Toriyama did on his own. For all we know, maybe one of the staff members was familiar with DBM and suggested a multiverse tournament? The concept of a cross-dimensional tournament has been done before but some of the similarities could've come from DBM. According to Alexa, about 10% of DBM's traffic comes from Japan so that could translate to tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of Japanese fans. It wouldn't be hard to believe that someone at Toei, Shueisha, or Bandai has at least heard of DBM. As far as I know Toriyama's main contributions to BoG were vetoing. Originally SSG was supposed to have a cape, and AT veto'd it. (Good decision.) Also, Beerus was originally pure evil and corrupted people just by being around them, like a virus (hence the name, "beerus" = "veerus" = "virus"), which is why the Saiyans were so bloodthirsty, but AT veto'd that. (Probably good decision.) Also, Toriyama named Whis because he thought Beerus was referring to beer, so why not have Whiskey be his attendant? I have no way to prove it, but I don't think Toriyama really has much to do with Super other than maybe character design. The U6 fighters, especially Magetta, look like stuff he might've come up with, but I wouldn't be surprised if everything else was Toei.
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Post by Azoth on Dec 2, 2016 1:01:02 GMT
I remember reading somewhere that Toriyama provides plot outlines and helps Toyotaro with the gags in the manga. Other than that, he doesn't seem super involved.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 1:46:50 GMT
I remember reading somewhere that Toriyama provides plot outlines and helps Toyotaro with the gags in the manga. Other than that, he doesn't seem super involved. Here's the recent interview with Toyotaro. You have a little freedom to suggest changes to Toriyama's outline, so what's the biggest alteration you've made?Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself. The Trunks arc within Dragon Ball Super will hit the U.S. soon, and while a certain reveal is the same in the manga, anime, and Toriyama's outline, both the anime and manga have different ways of getting there, each taking advantage of the unique aspects of their medium, so I hope everyone enjoys comparing them. The parts I really want my fans and readers to look at are the comedic gags, because I'm pretty free to create those!Between getting the outline and the final phase, what is the most difficult part of making the manga?What I receive from Toriyama is literally words on paper, without drawings or anything. So when I'm reading it, I have to fill in the blanks as far as the specifics are concerned. I think of what kinds of expressions the characters wear, which way they're looking when they say a certain line. Many times, Toriyama-sensei doesn't give me specific feedback on the details that I fill in, so I put a lot of thought into those aspects, knowing that my interpretation is what the readers will see.
I would love to have Toriyama just sit next to me so I could ask him questions all the time, but unfortunately, I can't!
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 2, 2016 2:03:03 GMT
You have a little freedom to suggest changes to Toriyama's outline, so what's the biggest alteration you've made? Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself. The Trunks arc within Dragon Ball Super will hit the U.S. soon, and while a certain reveal is the same in the manga, anime, and Toriyama's outline, both the anime and manga have different ways of getting there, each taking advantage of the unique aspects of their medium, so I hope everyone enjoys comparing them. The parts I really want my fans and readers to look at are the comedic gags, because I'm pretty free to create those!Between getting the outline and the final phase, what is the most difficult part of making the manga? What I receive from Toriyama is literally words on paper, without drawings or anything. So when I'm reading it, I have to fill in the blanks as far as the specifics are concerned. I think of what kinds of expressions the characters wear, which way they're looking when they say a certain line. Many times, Toriyama-sensei doesn't give me specific feedback on the details that I fill in, so I put a lot of thought into those aspects, knowing that my interpretation is what the readers will see.
I would love to have Toriyama just sit next to me so I could ask him questions all the time, but unfortunately, I can't!I bolded some things for emphasis. The problem is, I could see some Toei executive saying "Toriyama, Super needs more views, bring back Trunks because he's a fan favorite." And Toriyama goes "uhh" for a moment and then says "Well, there's an evil version of Goku, and he attacks Trunks." The fact that there are no drawings in his outline, just words on paper, makes me suspicious that he didn't put a lot of thought or effort into it. Toyotaro said "a certain reveal is the same in the manga, anime, and outline" but so far it wasn't. In the manga Goku and Vegeta know that Black is Zamasu before they fight him, and they didn't know that until the fourth fight in the anime. Not to mention the little spar Goku had with Zamasu in the anime that wasn't in the manga. One thing I'm dying to know is if the Mafuba, Vegito, and Spirit Bomb Sword are in the manga. I'm betting Mafuba isn't--why would Toriyama remember it?--and maybe Vegito isn't either; Bomb Sword probably is. I have a bit more faith in the manga because it's just one creator. Who knows how many people are involved in scripting the episodes? Often in group projects you have to compromise, which can lead to silly moments. For writing a story it's better to have a single creator with editors to reign in his madness.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 2, 2016 2:15:37 GMT
It sounds like they ask him for story ideas, he gives them basic outlines, and then leaves it up to them to make it all come together. At best he probably asks their opinion on what they want in the story and he whips something up for them to flesh out. I doubt Toriyama came up with all the methods or red herrings to stopping Zam/Black.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 3:21:44 GMT
We know both Toei and Toyotaro are basically covering the same outline so we could compare how long it took to cover them.
U6 saga 14 episodes vs 9 chapters
Goku Black saga 21 episodes vs 6-7 chapters (5 so far)
So Goku Black saga was shorter in the manga than the U6 saga in the manga but Toei stretched it out to make it a third longer than the U6 saga in the anime. I sometimes wonder if Toei would've been better off continuing with a film series like they did with Digimon Tri and release an installment or two each year. They wouldn't have to have a major budget like BoG or RoF but the pacing would be better and the animation would be more consistent than the anime. The U6 saga and Goku Black sagas could probably work as two- or three-part movies. U6 saga was about 4.7 hours (14 episodes x ~20 minutes) but if they took out all the filler then it probably fit into two 90-minute movies. If they followed the manga outline for the Goku Black saga, that could definitely fit within two movies.
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 2, 2016 3:47:02 GMT
^I'd like it if they did that. Make DBSuper like Sherlock and have "seasons" of two feature-length episodes or something. Condensing the Black saga into a 90-minute film like BoG could make for one slick, fast-paced ride. They'd probably have to introduce Zamasu during the U6 Tournament episode to make his appearance and reveal less out-of-the-blue, but otherwise it'd be easy to do. I don't know anything about how profitable it'd be compared to a filler-laden TV series, but it'd be much higher quality storytelling...
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Post by Azoth on Dec 2, 2016 20:57:06 GMT
I would love for the Super Sagas to be movies. They don't need a theatrical release or anything, but could definitely be polished more. We could even have skipped the BoG and FnF arcs.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 3, 2016 2:39:50 GMT
A new movie every few years could have worked. The ideas of Super aren't too bad, but they just need more free reign and time to develop. The concept of new gods and dimensions and universe could be awesome if they slowed down and properly build them up I think. Diving into what the Kais do or giving them a new function sounds cool, just wish we would see it more. Beerus just seems to destroy planets at random. I would like more thought put into it or a reason for why he destroys certain planets beyond they it makes him mad. Maybe the Kais should have been the gods of order and Beerus was dubbed the god of chaos. I feel like those attributes fit their job descriptions better. The gods of creation and destruction could be different characters with different functions, yet still sharing the same duality the Kais/Beerus share.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 2:55:02 GMT
From Volume 02 of the manga: Cool covers! What’s your process working with Toriyama-sensei?!I draw a rough draft based on Toriyama-sensei‘s original story, then I send it to my editor, who gets sensei to check it. It’s an honor to be able to give concrete form to sensei‘s ideas, but sometimes sensei will send over a part he drew himself, which sends me into an uproar, going back and forth between being all hyped up and feeling really down in the dumps. What will happen in the rest of the “Future Trunks arc” and afterwards?!The rest of the “Future Trunks arc” will take a slightly different approach with how things play out, compared to the TV anime. And after that…? “That promise” everyone is waiting for will be fulfilled! But you know Toriyama-sensei! Things won’t go as you expect! Look forward to it!!
I hope this different approach has a happier ending for Future Trunks with less asspulls and no Potara retcon!
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 9, 2016 3:10:20 GMT
From Volume 02 of the manga: Cool covers! What’s your process working with Toriyama-sensei?!I draw a rough draft based on Toriyama-sensei‘s original story, then I send it to my editor, who gets sensei to check it. It’s an honor to be able to give concrete form to sensei‘s ideas, but sometimes sensei will send over a part he drew himself, which sends me into an uproar, going back and forth between being all hyped up and feeling really down in the dumps. What will happen in the rest of the “Future Trunks arc” and afterwards?!The rest of the “Future Trunks arc” will take a slightly different approach with how things play out, compared to the TV anime. And after that…? “That promise” everyone is waiting for will be fulfilled! But you know Toriyama-sensei! Things won’t go as you expect! Look forward to it!!
I hope this different approach has a happier ending for Future Trunks with less asspulls and no Potara retcon! I want to call false advertising on those covers, because Majin Buu didn't do jack. It's a darn shame, too. At this moment, I'm not all that interested in the anime. I'm more excited to see how the manga handled the finale of the Black saga. All in all I've been pretty impressed with the manga--not exactly what I'd want for a Dragon Ball sequel, but good. While the anime is fun to watch, it still suffers heavily from a lot of storytelling flaws, and the manga seems a higher-quality product overall. When does the next chapter come out, again?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 3:18:26 GMT
AshanarkThe official release is usually around the 21st of the month and they begin leaking online around the 18th. I'm also curious what he means by "that promise everyone is waiting for will be fulfilled". Does he mean the promise of Zeno's tournament? What other promises were made in DBS?
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 20, 2016 0:58:01 GMT
The next chapter is out. mangastream.com/r/dragon_ball_super/019/3892/1I have to say the irony of Super manga having Zamasu not being able to use Goku's body to its full potential and getting his ass handed to him by Vegeta in light of DBM's current situation is not lost on me and is hilarious.
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 20, 2016 1:30:46 GMT
Holy crap, the manga is awesome! 1. Power levels are much more reasonable. Black went SS2 against Vegeta and was getting his butt handed to him even before Vegeta went SSB. 2. Beerus is a lot more competent in the manga, I think. His "Destruction" move might not have looked as cool, but it was certainly still as effective. 3. The destruction scene itself was better, I think, without Goku and Vegeta being there...In the anime, Zamasu was outclassed by three of the combatants present, but in this he had slightly better odds. Zamasu goes after Supreme Kai in order to kill Beerus, get Whis out of the picture, and let him get to Gowasu. Clever, but it doesn't work. 4. East Kai seems more decisive and useful. 5. I like Trunks telling Goku to stop messing around, and Goku telling Vegeta to not worry about giving him a turn. 6. It seems apparent from the beginning that Black and Zamasu are planning to fuse. They're wanting to build up Black's strength as much as possible before they do it, though. 7. Black seems much more down-to-business and less arrogant. I like his manga version better. 8. I am also surprised at how much of his plan Zamasu confessed to when Beerus confronted him. 9. I liked Whis' comment to Gowasu: "Pick an apprentice by his heart, not by his strength." Man, the manga is just so much better. I like it since I actually get the feeling the author's thinking the story through, whereas Toei's just coming up with random crap. It's time for another rousing game of "Guess What Toriyama's Outline Was!" My guess: "Goku and Vegeta go to the past to fight Black, and Vegeta beats him up. Meanwhile, Beerus confronts present Zamasu. Zamasu admits to what he did, but Beerus destroys him." The anime interpreted this as: "Goku and Vegeta go to the past to fight Black. After the two get the crap beat out of them several times, Vegeta trains a lot and then beats Black up. Meanwhile, Beerus confronts present Zamasu with Goku and Vegeta. Zamasu admits to what he did, but Beerus destroys him." Here's crossing my fingers that the manga doesn't have the Potara retcon! Son PanYes, it is indeed ironic. But Zamasu does not have as much experience with this whole body-switching thing as Ginyu. And the anime boosted Black's power AND strength-gaining abilities to levels that even DBM Ginyu doesn't have. Vegeta trained for a year in the HTC and Black overcame that training boost in about two minutes. Lame.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 20, 2016 4:50:52 GMT
It is funny how eerily similar Super's chapter and DBM's chapter are. Vegeta/Vegetto beating down Black/Ginyu, both go SS2 with Vegeta/Vegetto having the clear advantage, Vegeta/Vegetto both go overkill by transforming to their strongest forms, and Vegeta/Vegetto both declaring their superiority and claiming Black/Ginyu can't use a stolen body's full potential. Everything that we have been criticizing DBM for on the situation is seemingly playing out different in Super. Despite Black having Goku's body for some time and learning how to at least go up to SS2 he hasn't figured out how to go SSGSS and is still learning how to use stolen body's potential. Black seems more reasonable in his power set than Ginyu at the moment. The fact both of them came out around the same time is so coincidental that it is laughable.
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Post by Xeno Black on Dec 20, 2016 5:15:55 GMT
Th dialogue in this chapter was simply both hilarious and cool.
Goku: Crap... I guess this means while i'm at it, I'll have to avenge myself from myself. Vegeta: I didn't come here to talk! I came here to kick your ass! [proceeds to beat up the nearest Goku, which so happens to be Black] Black Goku: To think you'd possess this level of power... Vegeta, you son of a bitch! Vegeta: What's wrong? You really should hurry and transform! Because in this form, I'll have your head before you can blink. [proceeds to humiliate Black even further] Goku: Hrmm... I dont know how to feel about seeing the spitting image of myself getting his ass handed to him like this... Black Goku: SILENCE YOU FEEBLE HUMAN!!!! [Vegeta smirking at the thought if a proud saiyan warrior being mistaken for a human] Vegeta: Ahh, so your're a a comedian as well! EAT THIS!!!! [destroys black till he collapses while making fun of his red-painted clownish face] Goku: What a dick!!
As for the chapter itself, Vegeta whooping Black's ass was one of the greatest things ever conceived lol. At last, we get a Vegeta victory where he not only beats a foe's behind (which also happens to be a Goku), but he also didn't get his ass beaten in the process too. Hooray!!!!! I also like how Black simpl uses a regular SSJ form instead of the OP ssj Rose one. But Black's regular SSJ form looks too similar to SSJ2 (lightning strikes, darker eye outlines, initial SSJ2 bangs, etc). Luckily for us, Toyble's artwork is superb and he does a wonderful job regardless. Interesting that Black cannot use SSJ Blue despite his body being capable of doing it. This leads to my theory that SSJ Rose is simply a malevolent version of Blue, having Zamasu's wicked ki mixed in with it to give Black the power of Blue. And the second best part: HAKAI!! Seeing Zamasu turning into a pile of sand as his ashes fly into the wind as the rest falls down is beautiful. This chapter was definitely worth the wait.
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 20, 2016 7:07:30 GMT
If both Toei and Toyotarou get the outline from Toriyama, and the manga seems so massively superior to the anime, then perhaps I've had too little faith in Toriyama, since his outline seems to be working pretty well when Toei doesn't mess around with it. (Or maybe Toei just fumbled the Black saga really badly?) I remember liking the U6 tournament a lot, and so far the manga version of the Black saga feels just like DBZ. This latest chapter in particular seemed like a natural continuation from where the Buu saga left off. Vegeta isn't as "MUH PRIDE" as he is in the anime, Goku is waaaay smarter, Trunks and Mai's relationship is majorly downplayed, the artstyle seems more consistent with Toriyama's, and on the whole the pacing, dialogue, character interactions, exposition, and "camera" angles are better. Not to mention we see a bit more of Zamasu's positive side (friendly spar with Kibito) before things go to pot, and Black seems to have more of his own distinct personality. I've been really pleased with it so far, and I'm far happier with it being the "official" sequel to DBZ than the DBS anime. Xeno Black Are you sure Black was a SS1 that looked like a SS2, or was he actually just a SS2? I think putting sparks in the aura is a detail Toyotarou's been good at in the past: when Future Trunks fought Dabura, he only got the sparks when he finally went to the second level. Lol, look at me, this chapter hasn't even been out a week and I'm already quibbling over what form the characters are in. Son Pan There are quite a lot of coincidences between DBM and DBS at this point. Not only are there multiple universes and a multiverse tournament, but Black also had a frickin' energy scythe like Bra. Again, I agree it's ironic that this body-changer stuff is happening at the same time. I appreciate that Black is having difficulties getting used to Goku's body and he's not as ridiculously broken as he was in the anime...but I think we'll have to agree to disagree about Ginyu. You know my opinion on the Ginyu situation really well by now
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 20, 2016 7:26:15 GMT
I concur with everything said. Toyotaro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TOEI.
And indeed, Black is at SSJ2, not SSJ1. That bang that isn't so spiked, is probably a detail just to represent Zamasu possessing Goku. His hair when he transforms looks mostly like SSJ2, despite that mohawk-like bang.
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Post by Xeno Black on Dec 20, 2016 8:40:17 GMT
AshanarkConqueror GengEven though Black's SSJ form has all of the characteristics for it to be classified as a SSJ2, but why hasn't the main cast referred to it as such? The fact that both Goku, Vegeta, and Future Trunks just refer to it as "Super Saiyan" instead of Super Saiyan 2 (like how Goku said while fighting against Future Trunks) perplexes me. Perhaps I am being too picky and the dialogue is simply lax enough that it really is SSJ2 instead of the referred SSJ1. On the otherhand... If it really was SSJ and not SSJ2, imagine just how much stronger Black will become once he does unlock the real SSJ2 and SSJ3! He might become a match for SSJBlue Vegeta at full power, and once he unlocks his version of SSJBlue, shit shall get real lol. Off-Topic Slightly: Rumor has it that Gogeta may appear in this arc instead of Vegito if Fusion Zamasu is created. Due you guys prefer this route, or do you rather have Vegito appear without the bullshit retcon the anime had created?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 20, 2016 8:47:12 GMT
Ashanark Conqueror Geng Even though Black's SSJ form has all of the characteristics for it to be classified as a SSJ2, but why hasn't the main cast referred to it as such? The fact that both Goku, Vegeta, and Future Trunks just refer to it as "Super Saiyan" instead of Super Saiyan 2 (like how Goku said while fighting against Future Trunks) perplexes me. Perhaps I am being too picky and the dialogue is simply lax enough that it really is SSJ2 instead of the referred SSJ1. On the otherhand... If it really was SSJ and not SSJ2, imagine just how much stronger Black will become once he does unlock the real SSJ2 and SSJ3! He might become a match for SSJBlue Vegeta at full power, and once he unlocks his version of SSJBlue, shit shall get real lol. Off-Topic Slightly: Rumor has it that Gogeta may appear in this arc instead of Vegito if Fusion Zamasu is created. Due you guys prefer this route, or do you rather have Vegito appear without the bullshit retcon the anime had created? Gogeta is a far better choice. If Zamasus fuse using god magic, then it's only more poetic that Vegeta and Goku use a mortal magic technique to attempt to defeat them. I wonder if Merged Zamasu will have some design changes? I hope he retains a bit more of Black's features. As for the lax dialogue... I think it's just that. Or a shitty translation. Toyotaro has been quite consistent with sparks and all stuff (clearly showing the difference between his SSJ1 and SSJ2 when fighting with Dabura, despite the word 'ssj2' was never mentioned. This saga has been so much better thus far. Too bad it will last very little, and likely will feel just as rushed as the anime in the end. Though I'm sure Toyotaro will be able to make it work better. I think it's cool this Zamasu has this ability to heal (is he immortal too? he must be if he thinks he can help Black against Goku and Vegeta). I am also glad Trunks is sidelined and most of the work is done by Goku and Vegeta. It's also good Bulma doesn't go to the future. And no "Mai!/Turankusu!". No mafuba shit either. And hopefully no BS-no-explanation "Super" Trunks. I also hope Trunks doesn't defeat this Merged Zamasu that Vegetto Blue wasn't even able to seriously scratch. I think Zeno wiping out the entire universe will certainly happen though. When the 12 Gods of Destruction were confirmed and "revealed", two Zenos appear on the background. Damn man, I really wish the Anime would follow the Manga's route a lot more.
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