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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 15, 2017 9:10:28 GMT
I'm not so sure. Ever since the reveal that it was Toyotaro's idea to beef up Merged Zamasu's power and put Vegito in "for the fans," I've been wondering just how much influence he has on the overall story, even for the manga. Toriyama has forgotten or might-as-well-have-forgotten so many characters even when he was writing Z that I highly doubt he would've remembered 17 after two decades, let alone boosted him up to SS3 level, unless he was reminded of the character first. It's still definitely possible to me that he put that in the outline and I would believe it if it was confirmed, but from what I know of Toyotaro I can easily see him wanting to bring 17 back and give him a power boost to be decently relevant. I do agree though, while it's less of a bogus powerup than it was, and better compared to Super's other powerups--SS1+ to SS3 in 10-ish years isn't as bad as Frieza's SS1 to SSB in four months--it's still stupid. I hope that's the case because I don't think any of his battles in the ToP have really required to be much stronger than he was during the Cell saga. Based on how much was added/changed in the Goku Black saga by Toei and Toyotaro, I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama only wrote the general premise of this saga and outcome of a few major battles then let them handle the rest. We'll probably find out in future interviews featured in the manga volumes. It's fun to compare the manga and anime to see how much has been added by Toei. The preliminary round and recruitment took 20 episodes in the anime while the manga covered a more interesting preliminary round, has recruited most of the U7 team, and had time to spare to let us learn more about Jiren within only five chapters. That gives an idea of how much filler there was in the anime! I'm guessing next chapter we see Freeza get recruited and result of Gohan's training with Piccolo. I think he'll either have the tournament begin the following chapter or dedicate a chapter exploring some of the other universes.
I hope so! At least we already saw Jiren getting more development in 10 panels. Not much time needed to be wasted on GoDs since a few were already build up in the previous preliminary round. Though to be honest, considering how all of them actually were fodder, it could also see it as a waste of time. I do not think Caulifla, the Nameks, Champa would be bypassed by Toyotaro.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 17:03:35 GMT
B- Question for you who've been keeping track, what does the timeline look like from the end of the Buu Saga to BoG and RoF? If #17 has this kind of power now he'd be a real ass to sit out the other times when having SS3 level strength or close would've come in handy. The only source I could find was the DB Wikia which I think their source was one of the Xenoverse games: August, Age 778: BoG (four years after the Buu saga) December, Age 779: RoF Post-Freeza training, Champa saga, Goku Black saga December, Age 780: Universe Survival saga (about four years before EoZ) #17 would've been the 3rd strongest Z fighter during RoF after Goku and Vegeta. I don't think that would've helped out much and it probably would've only been stronger than Freeza's first few forms. He also would've been the third strongest during the Champa saga and could've taken out the first four U6 contestants. What I don't get is that he seemed like he was somewhat struggling against the U2 contestants while Goku and Vegeta only needed base and SSJ to stand up to Ribranne whenever she got in their way. #17 doesn't have any reason to hold back since the cyborgs had infinite stamina so he could've been gone all out from the beginning without any problems. I hope so! At least we already saw Jiren getting more development in 10 panels. Not much time needed to be wasted on GoDs since a few were already build up in the previous preliminary round. Though to be honest, considering how all of them actually were fodder, it could also see it as a waste of time. I do not think Caulifla, the Nameks, Champa would be bypassed by Toyotaro. So many characters ended up being fodder that I'm not really sure who I want to learn more about. Jiren joining to get the wish seems like too big of a plotpoint to just be in the manga so it makes me wonder why the anime never brought it up yet. I hope Toyotaro gives an explanation as to why Jiren doesn't just take out the competition and end the tournament as quickly as possible. I'm also hoping that the elimination order wasn't outlined by Toriyama so that Toei and Toyotaro are free to decide how they want the tournament to play out as long as they cover the major battles Toriyama decided on. The anime went out of their way to have everyone blame Goku and agree to target U7 which seemed like an excuse to have everyone line up to fight them and U7 get almost all the eliminations. If Toyotaro doesn't do that, it could end up being more of a battle royale with strong contestants of other universes getting more eliminations and screentime.
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Post by Axalon on Dec 16, 2017 2:44:08 GMT
-#17 getting a lot stronger seems to part of Toriyama's outline. While being SSJ3 tier isn't as bad as being equal to some undefined suppressed level of SSJB, it still doesn't make sense to me how he could improve so much. Goku trained in Other World for seven years and two transformations to reach that power while Vegeta trained in high gravity for seven years and a few years after that but never unlocked SSJ3. #17 beats up a few poachers and apparently does some occasional training on his own in normal gravity to reach SSJ3?? Future #17 was older when he was killed but he barely got any stronger since his release. Imagine how screwed Future Trunks would've been if #17 took a break from killing humans and decided to train every once in a while. I don't think #17's power-up was even necessary based on his performance in the ToP since the contestants he eliminated seemed to be mostly fodder or barely SSJ. Clearly #17 subscribed to Frieza'a DBS training program. Apparently, if you fight enemies vastly weaker than yourself you gain more strength as opposed to fighting your hardest against difficult foes. Poachers and a Zarbon opponent did more for these two than an entire arc of Cell and Buu were able to do for Vegeta. That would be a really dick move. A SS3-tier combatant who literally has ZERO stamina issues would've been a tremendous asset against Buu. It'd be like Goku never getting tired against Kid Buu in the finale.
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Post by Kirasha on Dec 16, 2017 11:32:35 GMT
17 being so powerful and sitting out on battles that literally determined the fate of Earth is just another one of DB's many inconsistencies. He's officially more of a dick than the Supreme Kais whom also only watch and don't do anything unless it is their own life on the line. Frieza conquering the universe? Oh well, not our problem. Cell threatening to blow up the galaxy? Oh dear, not our problem. Is there any more tea? Buu being revived and thus a direct threat to them? OH FUCKING HELL! WE MUST ACT NOW!!
Though, 17 not showing up may well have to do with his mindset, after all he flatout told Goku he did not particularly cared if the universe got destroyed, basically along the lines of "Well if it's my time, it's my time.". So that may have played a significant role in why 17 doesn't pop up during the other major fights, he just doesn't really care.
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Post by jaimehlers on Dec 20, 2017 19:05:39 GMT
Interesting thread. Personally, I like manga better than anime, with some exceptions (like when the anime actually does better, such as with Hunter x Hunter, Haikyu, and Parasyte). Especially given that it's Toei which is pretty fond of filler and otherwise inflating episodes to begin with.
That being said, I like the pacing of the manga over the anime here. While I haven't watched a lot of Super, I did watch everything from the episode where Piccolo trains Gohan after completing the latest manga chapter. I could tell that some things were filler, but it made it a lot less frustrating than, say, watching Naruto filler despite knowing how the manga actually went.
I think there are problems even with the manga, but it's clear that the longer timeframe the manga has to work with is paying off.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 16, 2018 4:30:33 GMT
If 17 is allowed to be as strong as SS3 opponent than I wish Piccolo would be allowed to be one as well. Piccolo was above 17 and never stopped training either. I honestly would buy Piccolo reaching that level in 12-13 years since the Cell Games than 17. It would allow Piccolo to get some justice and have be relevant again. In general I'm sick of the Saiyans being so strong. I really just wish Piccolo and the humans were just given power ups already to close the gap somewhat.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 20, 2018 9:01:33 GMT
Manga episode 32 has been released. This is a brief recap and not an indepth review (I think it hasn't been released in english yet): -Kaulifla and Kale do not get instant SSJ in the manga. Cabba actually kicks the shieeeeeeeet out of Caulifla and not the other way around, nor is quickly surpassed. THIS MEANS NO BACK TINGLES! -This means they will eventually get their SSJ forms in the ToP. I think there's a possibility Kaulifla won't get SSJ2, only Cabba. -Despite that, the portrayal of Kale is a lot better. While she's a shy girl, this is far from being the only defining trait. She is some sort of really sneaky career thief, and is able to steal a pendant from Cabba despite him being SSJ and her being on base. -Kaulifla does not have a brother in the manga. In fact, some dude she steals stuff (and also kicks his ass) looks exactly like "Renzo" -RoF is shown in flashbacks during this episode -Beerus references the fan dialogue and says "What? Reviving Freeza? Reviving people is a cliché". -Whiss says the angels do not necessarily know the universe they've been assigned at 100% -Goku actually suggest Future Trunks as the 10th member of Universe 7 before Freeza, in order to replace Buu (!!) -Gohan will not wear the Goku GI for the ToP in the manga!! He will wear Cell Games clothing!! That is, like Piccolo (minus the turban and cape). -ToP likely starts at the next chapter since they already left -The recruiting of other Universes beyond U6 and U11 was not shown at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 15:36:27 GMT
Forgive me if I’m wrong. But wasn’t it stated that at the very minimum that Caulifla got Super Saiyan off screen?
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jan 20, 2018 20:34:10 GMT
Forgive me if I’m wrong. But wasn’t it stated that at the very minimum that Caulifla got Super Saiyan off screen? Same thought that went to my head. At least they don't reveal the back tingle. Makes me curious how they're going to handle Kale's transformation. Side note: Also, it was Frieza who didn't want to hold hands, unlike Vegeta in the Anime.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 20, 2018 20:47:58 GMT
Forgive me if I’m wrong. But wasn’t it stated that at the very minimum that Caulifla got Super Saiyan off screen? Maybe, maybe not, he merely explained her what the transformation was about (I think). He explained her all what Vegeta and Goku told him, and the legend blah-blag-blah. Past tenses are likely a mistranslation. In that page she's using past and future tense exchangeably. Another thing why I think this didn't happen is because Toyotaro likes showcasing additional transformations a lot. Vegeta got SSJred, Goku showcased all of his forms against Toppo, Trunks was actually shown getting SSJ2 (the anime didn't)... So to have this entirely offscreen makes it a first. You could argue SSJBlue wasn't showcased but there wasn't a really official RoF manga. Still, even if this actually happened... it only happened with Kaulifla and not Kale. She also did not get instant SSJ2 (which was the highest aggravation). Considering that they're already traveling to Champa's place or whatever... it's also likely we won't get "Kefla" (I hope!).
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Post by Kirasha on Jan 21, 2018 3:23:05 GMT
Nah, Caulifla clearly got SSJ off screen going by their dialogue, Caulifla comments on how it was a lot easier then she thought, Cabba remarks how the U7 Saiyans had it much harder to reach it, Caulifla claims she's more talented than them then. She has Super Saiyan at this point, Kale apparently does not.
I approve that they toned down Kale's meekness, she's shown as a capable fighter, being fast enough to snatch a Sadala Army Saiyan's pistol and crush it, as well as snatching that hanger/amulet from Cabba whilst he was still a Super Saiyan. Her meekness only really shows towards Caulifla, and when they are in that ship.
I also like that is was apparently Cabba's idea to bring Kale along, not Caulifla
To be fair though, I'm not sure what to think of them skipping the Super Saiyan gaining. On one hand, yay, no back tingles. On the other hand..it feels horribly lazy to skip it like this.
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Post by iron leaf on Feb 1, 2018 21:54:32 GMT
Guys, after I read the current DBS chapter 32 I noticed something. The beginning of the chapter resembles the beginning of Sandland a lot. Could be a run of the mill scenario but I think Toyotaro wanted to make reference to something Toriyama related once again. That's very similar, raiding officials ... overpowering those officials ... give away raided goods to some kid. The scene in DBS where they stole the goods and leave the official looks exactly the same as in Sandland.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 22:55:43 GMT
Some spoilers for the new chapter! Jiren is more involved: It feels a lot more like a chaotic battle royale! I'm not sure about the eliminations. Hopefully they're not in the same order as the anime. If Toriyama didn't outline the order then Toyotaro might give other universes more screentime and not give U7 so many.
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Post by Teh Jammah on Feb 17, 2018 23:14:08 GMT
That looks promising. Especially Goku being in SSJ seemingly from the start. Actually makes this seem like the other universes are strong enough to take seriously rather than a bunch of jobbers they crush in base form.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 19, 2018 1:54:06 GMT
Some spoilers for the new chapter! Jiren is more involved: It feels a lot more like a chaotic battle royale I'm not sure about the eliminations. Hopefully they're not in the same order as the anime. If Toriyama didn't outline the order then Toyotaro might give other universes more screentime and not give U7 so many. They are entirely different. A17 and Freeza are bodying all U10 warriors like hell. U18 bodied both Jimize and the fat dude that reflected ki attacks. Vegeta bodied one dude from U3 and other from U4 (the one that choked Goku). Goku is slapping all the U11 fodder around. Jiren also doesn't teleport behind Goku and acts all disrespectful. U9 has been given a far better treatment thus far. I think U2 and U10 will be the first to go in manga. That looks promising. Especially Goku being in SSJ seemingly from the start. Actually makes this seem like the other universes are strong enough to take seriously rather than a bunch of jobbers they crush in base form. The ones deserving to be foddered quick have been foddered quick. Namely Jimize, reflection dude, 2 U10 tards, the pepsi dude, the ogre that choked goku, etc... I am also hoping we're going to see plenty of SSJ2 and SSJ3 in this tournament. It is very good the elimination order is starting entirely different, this has sparked my interest.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 19, 2018 22:24:06 GMT
I don't think the manga will be the platform to hope for other universes to get more screen time. The time to have done that would have been the recruitment process. Universe 11 got a decent one that established Jiren's character and some of the U11 characters. None of the other universes got that opportunity. I think that was necessary in order to get the audiences to care about the other universes and open the door to more of them getting screen time. I think what Toyotaro is doing is cutting to the chase and outlining that the only universes that will matter in this tournament will be Universe 6, Universe 7, and Universe 11. They will probably be the highlights and focus, while the others will be fodder to get rid of. At best some might be revamped to make more sense or be tailored to the weaker Z-fighters to fight. However, I'm not really sure how much screen time and actual action will be given to the supporting cast and antagonists.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Krillin and Tien get knocked out even sooner and not be given highlight chapters, like they got highlight episodes, just to show case the chaotic nature of the tournament and how anyone can be knocked out. 17 and Roshi will be safe as stand outs since they were elements the fans seemed to really love in the anime. Gohan and Piccolo could be testing ground for other Universe 6 and Universe 11 opponents, to highlight them. All in all I don't really expect this manga to improve on this arc in a drastic way that will elevate character development and better characterization for the other universes or Z-fighters that got shafted in the anime (like Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, etc.).
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 20, 2018 19:06:19 GMT
How do you feel about the non participating deities being absent from the ToP?
At first I did not like it but to be honest all they did was a Naruto fight (where one of them chose not to participate) and they only managed to scratch a stage which many mortals blew to complete pieces. Their comments have merely been filler lines that state the obvious "Oh, Jiren so strong", "Goku has passed its limits, he's no normal mortal". So I think what little development they got during the exhibition match is manga has been more worth than their entire stay in Anime ToP. I don't mind them being absent.
This will be a lot more awkward once more universes get eliminated.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 19:17:19 GMT
They are entirely different. A17 and Freeza are bodying all U10 warriors like hell. U18 bodied both Jimize and the fat dude that reflected ki attacks. Vegeta bodied one dude from U3 and other from U4 (the one that choked Goku). Goku is slapping all the U11 fodder around. I may have spoken too soon if U7 is getting most of the eliminations. At least they're cutting to the chase and getting rid of the fodder early on. Some of them had unique abilities but they were really only useful in the anime because U7 was holding back enough for their abilities to inflict any damage. In a tournament with a few +SSJG tier contestants and some ranging between SSJ1-3 tier, anyone below SSJ really shouldn't last long. It looks like Jiren is only knocking his opponents aside because he doesn't want to be responsible for their elimination? I get he's wanting to have a clear conscience but knocking these opponents down could leave them dazed enough for someone else to swoop in and hit them out of bounds so Jiren is going to be indirectly responsible for some eliminations. It could be that Toriyama said something like "Jiren chooses to only eliminate the contestants that are too powerful for his teammates" and the manga and anime presented it differently. In the anime, Jiren was an asshole who meditated for most of the tournament only waking up to knock out a strong opponent. Here Jiren is more of a noble superhero who will struggle when he's forced to eliminate other contestants to save his universe and get his wish. I'm curious to learn what Jiren's wish will be. This personality is so different in the two that it's hard to imagine both versions having the same goal. In the manga, Jiren mentioned his wish would go against his morals so it probably isn't to resurrect his family. It could be to learn the whereabouts of the evil-doer who killed them. That can't be it either because he likely would've found him by now unless that guy went into hiding or escaped to a different universe after learning how strong Jiren was becoming. His backstory doesn't give me high hopes that his wish will be all that original so that could be why they're waiting until the end before revealing it. How do you feel about the non participating deities being absent from the ToP? I agree their battle royale had more of an impact than their anime commentary. I suppose Toyotaro decided that the GoD battle royale was enough and he left them out so he wouldn't have to keep drawing them all in the background? EDIT How how many chapters do you think the tournament will last for? It's going to be a little over 30 episodes in the anime but if we take out the filler background fights that didn't go anywhere or send episodes on a weaker, fodder contestants then it probably could've been brought down to 15-20 episodes. We'll get a few eliminations each chapter but it will slow down once the strongest contestants are all that remain. I could see it lasting at least 10 chapters and continue until the new film comes out in December.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 21, 2018 4:00:07 GMT
I would hope that the manga would buff some of these characters up to make these battles more entertaining, by either making more fighters from the other universes closer to the top tier fighters in U7 or give them better techniques to make up for the power difference. This would have been the arc to try to revive technique, skill, and strategy. I'm reminded of Yu Yu Hakusho. Right after the Dark Tournament arc they introduced human enemies who while not as strong as the protagonists in raw power their abilities allowed them to challenge them or counter them in interesting ways. What if we had an opponent who could absorb kinetic energy and repel it back at someone? That ability alone would counter someone like Goku even in SSG punch and throw that force right back at him. What about an opponent that could manipulate space and time to displace an attack from hitting them to hitting their opponent? There could be an opponent who uses telepathic attacks? There were a number of ways that some characters in other universes could have made up for lack of power to fight stronger fighters. If teamwork is thrown into the mix a lot of mundane or simple techniques coming together could create some serious trouble.
It is not usually Toriyama's style, but since this tournament was suppose to showcase power just wasn't important it would have served him or Toyotaro to have gotten notes from a friend or other manga artists that are use to creating diverse abilities to help them create foes who while physically weaker are just as dangerous due to their abilities and techniques. The teams could be mixed with traditionally strong foes and skilled and unique foes. It would go a long way into reminding us that Goku and Vegeta are crafty fighters as well as strong ones, but testing their smarts on how well they adapt. Smarter fighters like Gohan or Piccolo could really shine in that arena. The weaker Z-fighters could have been a lot of help against trickier opponents.
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Post by Axalon on Feb 21, 2018 5:58:14 GMT
I would hope that the manga would buff some of these characters up to make these battles more entertaining, by either making more fighters from the other universes closer to the top tier fighters in U7 or give them better techniques to make up for the power difference. This would have been the arc to try to revive technique, skill, and strategy. I'm reminded of Yu Yu Hakusho. Right after the Dark Tournament arc they introduced human enemies who while not as strong as the protagonists in raw power their abilities allowed them to challenge them or counter them in interesting ways. What if we had an opponent who could absorb kinetic energy and repel it back at someone? That ability alone would counter someone like Goku even in SSG punch and throw that force right back at him. What about an opponent that could manipulate space and time to displace an attack from hitting them to hitting their opponent? There could be an opponent who uses telepathic attacks? There were a number of ways that some characters in other universes could have made up for lack of power to fight stronger fighters. If teamwork is thrown into the mix a lot of mundane or simple techniques coming together could create some serious trouble. It is not usually Toriyama's style, but since this tournament was suppose to showcase power just wasn't important it would have served him or Toyotaro to have gotten notes from a friend or other manga artists that are use to creating diverse abilities to help them create foes who while physically weaker are just as dangerous due to their abilities and techniques. The teams could be mixed with traditionally strong foes and skilled and unique foes. It would go a long way into reminding us that Goku and Vegeta are crafty fighters as well as strong ones, but testing their smarts on how well they adapt. Smarter fighters like Gohan or Piccolo could really shine in that arena. The weaker Z-fighters could have been a lot of help against trickier opponents. And get away from the classic PUNCH THEM REALLY REALLY HARD and if that fails BLAST THEM REALLY REALLY HARD aesthetic? I feel you give DBS too much credit, though I do admit I'd like to see it move away from that. I'd be surprised if we got something better than what the anime gave us with Roshi, the only character who actually showcased skill defeating power in the anime's version.
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