Dragon Ball Super Manga Thread (SPOILERS)

Axalon
Yeah it seems Toriyama only cared enough about what UI does but not how it's achieved or how it relates to Whis' training. I'm not sure how watching Master Roshi dodge someone or getting smacked in the face by the Spirit Bomb helped Goku unlock an ancient technique that Beerus had been working towards for decades/centuries. Activating the form a few times in less than an hour was enough to master it which I'm pretty sure makes it the quickest mastery of a SSJ form in the series. I know they give fewer shits as the series goes on but it would've been nice if both versions could've agreed on how the form is achieved since Toriyama didn't care. I like that the anime made it look cooler but they probably left it ambiguous hoping that fans will BS their own headcanon to cover it.

I preferred the anime version mainly because it didn't give an exact reason. They weren't sure so it seems like they opted for something similar to how SSJ1 and SSJ2 were first achieved with Goku being pushed into a corner and triggering a new transformation. They even had a callback to the Freeza saga with having Goku fail using the Kaioken x20 and then Spirit Bomb against a bald alien antagonist before unlocking a new form.

The manga gave a reason that made no sense and too specific to try and come up with your own headcanon. For the anime, you can assume Goku was near his limit in SSJB so when he tried powering up in that desperate situation he broke through to a new form. It could also tie-in with the Spirit Bomb since it's a technique taught to him by a God by saying that getting hit with all that Genki/lifeforce energy triggered something in Goku that made him more in tune with his surroundings and helped him reach Ultra Instinct or something. I think it's better to make it look cool and open to interpretation than give a specific reason that makes no sense.

I should probably clarify since my comment makes it sound like I thought the anime's method was done well and that I thought it was still pretty bad. It mainly yet another callback to an iconic moment in DBZ that ends up making DBS more forgettable the more often they do it. I just liked that it was vague so it's open to interpret and fans can pretend its more than just a cheap reference.

This new chapter is progressing to quickly. It feels rushed.

Whis: "Ultra Instinct will allow you to dodge without thinking!"

Literally the second punch Jiren throws lands square on Goku's nose after he dodges the INCREDIBLY TELEGRAPHED first punch.

*breathes* BOI.

I mean I get it, he's getting used to UI and all that, but still, and to be fair he does go on to dodge more of Jiren's blows but come on. Overall a minor nitpick.

I also don't like that Goku is just acting like himself and prefer when the anime had him acting more seriously while in the form. Also DID HE SERIOUSLY JUST MASTER IT IN A FEW SECONDS. Like...really Toyotaro? Here I thought the freaking anime did it fast but you just told them to hold your beer didn't you? That's just downright silly. So Goku watches Roshi explicitly NOT do UI, just dodge, figures out the trick to UI by watching Roshi just dodge a couple of attacks even though watching Beerus actually doing UI earlier did nothing for him, and THEN MASTERS IT?! JUST LIKE THAT?

No. Just no. This is worse than Golden Frieza, who at least trained in SOME capacity. This is worse than Super Saiyan Rage Trunks, who at the very least is applying the principle of rage boosts to powerup, despite how silly it is. And it's definitely worse than Anime UI where a Spirit Bomb imploded and somehowsuckedGokuintoanotherdimensionbutheyhebrokeoutsoitisallgood, because at least then Goku was in a "do or die" situation.

But enough about of all that. There are a few more instances where we can see the nebulous outline and how the anime/manga differ or are at least similar.

1. Half the arena gets destroyed.

In the anime this was Jiren blasting Goku over and over and over again trying to knock him out and destroying half of it in the process. In the manga this was Goku punching Jiren. Gotta say I like Jiren's version more to be honest. The battle between he and Goku is ramping up, Jiren's starting to go all out, and everyone's cheering one way or the other for their preferred fighter to triumph. Goku's version just...happens and feels like they're trying to copy that time Saitama punched a cliffside out of existence in One Punch Man. 



The cheering still happens, as is DB tradition, but it's only when they're doing the typical ATATATATATA and trading punches, not an epic blast struggle.

2. Jiren aims a ki blast at the stands.

In the anime this was Jiren showing how fragile allies could be and thus you shouldn't rely on them. This enforced Jiren's loner mentality vs. Goku and U7's teamwork mentality. (Well, kinda teamwork at any rate). This also served to further motivate Goku to defeat Jiren for trying the cheap shot and he ALSO protected his friends simultaneously by deflecting Jiren's blast. 

In the manga Jiren is actually aiming for Goku, who just dodges it by teleporting out of the way. Vegeta, who is behind Goku, is also in the blast's path and he just barely dives out of the way in time. Gohan also came perilously close to losing a foot as well. Goku notably does not help them. Perhaps he figured they'd be okay? Overall the anime has a more "teamwork" approach to this angle in Goku defending them as opposed to the manga's version of "GTFO AND DOOOOODDDDGGGGGEEEEE"--which to Gohan's credit he does. Piccolo is proud this day.

3. Jiren "powers up" and is able to fight with UI Goku.

In the anime this was Jiren breaking his limits and achieving even greater power. Typical DB powerup fueled by desperation/rage. In the manga it's fairly similar, except he just wears Goku down to the point where he loses UI (Off-panel I might add) and Vegeta barely saves him from getting knocked out.

4. Goku hasn't really mastered UI. 

So literally in the same volume that Whis declared that this was "perfected" he backtracks and is like "well whoops looks like all that dodging is tiring Goku out. Guess he hasn't REALLY mastered it after all. Guy needs some more training." Not much difference from the anime, where Goku can't transform into it at will despite "mastering it". So overall MUI is a silly, silly name that should never have been adopted in the first place and instead saved for when Goku, I dunno, actually masters the damn thing.

5. Goku and Vegeta team up against Jiren.

The anime actually has them NOT working together efficiently as being the thing that's throwing Jiren off because it isn't a logical team attack but nonetheless is effective due to their skills as fighters, while the manga has them in sync with each other instead. Beerus complains that this is what they should've been doing from the start (I agree) and just makes them look silly in hindsight. The other side even questions why they never bothered to do this beforehand and then the chapter just continues without answering, leaving them also extremely confused that Goku and Vegeta didn't just do this from the start as well. TL;DR Goku/Vegeta look stupid.

Also in the anime they were fighting at SSBKKx20/SSBE whereas here they're fighting in base form and I guess Jiren is just so tired at this point in the manga that base form is good enough? But if Goku and Vegeta in base form are enough that means #17 should logically be able to hop out of his hiding place and singlehandedly take care of Jiren himself at this point, since, y'know--not getting tired is a huge advantage and he's way above base Goku and Vegeta. Or is the twist that #17 actually is dead in the manga?........Nah. More likely Jiren is just too strong for Goku/Vegeta and Vegeta gets knocked out next chapter, then loses to Goku/Frieza/17.

That's all I can see.

Anyway, Jiren's wish being revealed in the manga...ehhhhhh. I agree with The Retro Kakarotto , leaving it a bit of a mystery was the better choice. Giving it some wiggle room for "Oh, Jiren wants to wish away ALL EVIL IN THE MULTIVERSE EVER" as a viable choice while also leaving room for "Guy wants his dead comrades back" is better than "Actually he doesn't care about wiping out evil at all when given the opportunity by a dragon that can do anything, he'd rather just wish his old teacher back". I mean, I get WHY they're choosing to reveal it in the manga, I just don't agree with the execution. It's revealed so that when U7 inevitably makes the not-selfish wish they can be justified in the end as opposed to Jiren's selfishness, because POPO forbid anyone aside from Goku's side look justified or have at least some goddamn nuance. Still don't like the execution though.

Overall though, I agree that this is being rushed, probably so that DBS is wrapped up in time for the Broly movie to come out. If only the last saga hadn't been so dragged out, eh?

Frieza is...chilling out and hasn't been knocked out yet.

Eh, I don’t think this chapter was all that good, but I personally felt like Jiren’s motivation was fine. I mean like everyone else mentioned there was no real way his wish could have avoided the problems people are having, like it being inherently selfish since 7 other universes would have to die, but it is a motive I can understand and to me is something that doesn’t negate anything else good or bad about the character. I think the execution could have been better and this chapter finally gave me a reason to by Axalon’s Jiren went super slow for Roshi explanation now since he has his own master.

I don’t know what motive did people think would have been better that negated all the problems you have with this one? Is it like Axalon said and it should have been something like erase all evil in the multiverse? I feel like with rules of losers die that Jiren was going to fall into the trap of being selfish unless his wish was really to revive all the universes and pass Zeno’s secret test of character motive, but then I think we would be bitching that Goku and the others should have thought of that.

See I think you have a problem with the setup than the motive itself. You are saying he fights for justice but at the end of the day every person fighting in this tournament to save their own universes, which is at the expense of other universes. No one in the manga has even said they would use the wish to restore everyone. Even if Jiren just fought to save U11 and didn’t need any incentive at all it still would be him condemning 7 other universes to save his own, which is still the same problem you have, Jiren is selfish for saving his universe at the expense of 7 other universes. So there is no truly selfless wish except making a wish that restores all the other universes, and while we the audience know that will happen and is Zeno’s true hope for this tournament the other fighters don’t. There is no reason for them to believe if they do make this wish Zeno just won’t destroy them all over again and then their universe for giving him more work. To me it sounds like you dislike this situation and the other characters are accepting of it, rather than Jiren wanting to bring back his master.

I get where you are coming from. In the grand scheme of things we want are gods in fiction to benevolent and fair, but it does make more interesting stories if they assholes. Zeno being the supreme god who will destroy other universes on a whim locks the characters into limited actions.

I can put myself in Jiren’s shoes though and still understand where he is coming from, which you have to admit compared to other DB villains is still a step up. Maybe it is because I watched a lot of things where people are given nothing but bad options and they have to choose the least bad one that I can be fine with Jiren’s wish.

I mean at the end of the day he has no reason to believe he can save everyone with his wish. It seems wrong to blame him for destroying the other universes when it is Zeno’s doing. I wouldn’t blame Gohan if he won and he didn’t use the wish to restore the other universes (because he thinks Zeno wouldn’t just destroy them again and might be afraid it could anger him into destroying U7 after all and his family) because he wanted to save his family and friends in his universe. At least that is how I think about it. Cause we have to remember these people do not know Zeno’s contest is a secret test of character. As far as Jiren knows he forfeits his universe dies and there is no way to visit U7 to see if their DBs will work on U11. His wish is selfish, but I think it is too harsh to claim Jiren’s actions will condemn everyone else to die simply because he is playing Zeno’s game. Granted I can see people wanting the manga to subvert are expectations by having Goku and Vegeta lose and Jiren being so noble to make the wish to save everyone else, since it would show he is not only heroic, but brave enough to stand up to Zeno and risk his universe to save the others, but it not going to happen. I think the more problematic part about Jiren in this chapter is his wish could have been executed better especially given Roshi fight he had earlier. He scolded Goku for needing his master when he is the same way. That should have been the time to show a softer side to Jiren and have him bond with Goku on that. Honestly I felt last chapter was far worse since Jiren once again shows no care for his teammates and being a one man show. Now that makes Jiren’s goal worse in mind since he disregarded his teammates over victory.

In mythology, there are plenty of amoral or chaotic gods. My problem with Zeno is that he's taken to such an extreme that it seems he's intended as a joke. Other reality destroying gods I've seen usually have a motive for wiping out of all existence and want to start over or some other motive. From what we've seen when Zeno destroyed the multiverse, he just floats around in space. If he can create new universes or theres another God that does that then his actions aren't so bad but we don't know if he can considers what comes after. It's like a child who gets upset and breaks their toy and isn't developed enough to realize that breaking their toys means they can't have fun anymore. I think it limits what can be done with him since he seems too stupid to be reasoned with and no one is powerful enough to stop him.


Jiren has no reason to believe he can save everyone because NO ONE thinks to ask if resurrecting the other universes would be allowed. If they were to ask the Grand Priest at the beginning of the tournament if it was allowed to wish them back to maybe give them a second chance to raise their mortal level, I doubt he would've lied to them. I think the story purposely left out this glaring question and not have a single God of Destruction, Kaioshin, or contestant ask because it could kill the tension of the saga. Most of the contestants seemed like decent people from what we've seen so the majority likely would've agreed to make that wish. It's never brought up the entire tournament so whoever does make that wish is doing it without knowing if it's going to work or not. My point is that it feels like Jiren is forced to be an antagonist and only consider a selfish wish.