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Post by Son Pan on Oct 22, 2018 6:21:47 GMT
This is the same general problem we’ve seen throughout Toyotaro’s ToP. Remember when he introduced the U6 Nameks one panel before Kale eliminated them? When Roshi did basically nothing the whole tournament then “Oh by the way, I kinda know Ultra Instinct now?” When he had Gohan say “My human side gives me strength” while fighting Kefla? The dude does so much three-second foreshadowing I think he honestly feels that’s proper storytelling. So I’m not surprised he revealed Jiren had a master and then in the same chapter revealed how Jiren’s big wish is to revive his master for his approval. Yes, we knew Jiren had a wish he wanted granted, but it was never mentioned he had a master, or really much of anything about him. Regardless of what you think about Jiren’s backstory or motivations, revealing it three seconds before the finale is not good writing. Yeah, Toriyama improvised stuff all the time. But—and I never thought I’d ever say this about Toriyama—it seems he foreshadowed stuff better than Toyotaro does. That’s right: freaking Toriyama was better at foreshadowing than Toyotaro has been in the ToP. Even in the Buu saga, Toriyama’s worst and craziest writing, even with the Halfway-Plot Switch of dropping Gohan like a rock, Toriyama still had setup and payoff on Vegeta and Hercule. Vegeta’s jealousy of Goku and mixed feelings about his Earthling lifestyle were brought up at just about his every major scene prior to the “You’re better than me” speech, as was Hercule gradually becoming more heroic until he finally saves the day with the Spirit Bomb. On the other hand, having Goku and Vegeta have one time sparring together with Whis is not enough to say, a really freaking long time later filled with plenty of examples of them not working together and it working, “Oh, they’re finally working together! Just as planned.” Toyotaro is great at copying Toriyama’s art style, but he doesn’t have a flair for dynamic or fluid paneling and his latest chapter really shows his storytelling is just eghhh. Things change at the flip of a coin, and none of his manga has ever managed epic. As for whether Jiren’s backstory and goal are good concepts separate from how they're written…every now and then in fiction you have a character whose motivation just doesn’t add up with what they’re doing. Like Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. Or Loki from the first Thor movie, who ironically had the exact same motivation and method as Jiren: “I want my mentor’s approval. Better cause genocide to get it!” I personally feel the anime’s take of “my mentor died and now I need to be strong” and the manga’s “my mentor died and now I need his approval” are both insufficient, giving how they portrayed Jiren from the start. Jiren was presented so much as a force that, in my opinion, simply losing a master isn’t enough to justify the sort of person he is and how he acts. Maybe if he’d been given more characterization from the start, such a “mundane” backstory would’ve worked. Interestingly, they could've let slip right at the beginning of the ToP that Jiren had a master who died without any worries of spoiling what his wish was: he was presented so much as "JUSTICE" that theories like him wishing away all evil would've still made more sense than him wishing back his master. But they kept his backstory so much of a mystery that, ironically, it really doesn’t matter once it’s revealed—since neither Jiren or anyone else mention his master until the very end of the tournament, it was clear his master didn’t really mean that much to him, no matter what the writers want you to think. Ultimately I think it probably would’ve been better if Jiren was more of a cosmic figure, like an anthropomorphic personification of justice, or a Superman whose destiny is to destroy evil. Go big or go home--he's the final villain of your series! Well, actually...I know I'm sounding like a broken record on this, but it would've been REALLY better if U11 was the POV universe, with our new hero Jiren trying to find a way to defeat the freakishly powerful Goku. But within the context of the manga ToP being a half-hearted version of a half-hearted outline of an idea that wasn't that great to begin with...giving Jiren an underwhelming backstory and a few Kick The Dog moments to make sure the Z-Fighters keep the moral high ground really wasn't a good idea. Especially when the ToP just looks like a cruel game from a stupid child, allowing for pure good guys from different universes to go all-out against each other. See Jiren’s backstory is meh. I agree that his characterization is all over the place and they had him kick dogs to keep our heroes on moral high ground. I just don’t agree the wish is that. Like I said before him letting his teammates fall feels far worse than the wish. Largely I’m hung up on this because I can use that same argument to call everyone competing selfish or a monster for only thinking of themselves. Like Gohan defeated the last member of U10 he didn’t like it, but did it because he felt like it was the only way to save his family. I don’t want to start criticizing people for prioritizing their own family or friends over people they don’t know. In a perfect world we could all do that, but I can understand that motive even if it is selfish. It is being too hard on all of them for not being us. We all get super critical or judge them too harshly because we know it is a story and there is a backdoor to all of this, but if I was in their position I don’t think I would necessarily think of all these things especially if I was fighting for my family and thought this was the only way I could save them. Jiren by extension wanting to bring back his dead master is a motive I understand. If I could bring a dead loved one back I would probably do it. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 7:31:14 GMT
Yes, but I mean if Zeno is even putting the universes at stake in the first place I can see why they wouldn’t think to ask if they can undo it with a wish. Beerus was always warning Goku not to talk to Zeno because he may trigger him and Goku largely did small stuff like like be informal with him. I could imagine the other gods and angels would be or shoot down anyone who suggested or asked if they could use the wish to restore the other universes out of fear of them undermining Zeno and it could lead to their universe get destroyed with the others. They all fear him for a reason. I didn’t seem weird to me that no one would question him. Plus even if the did ask I’m sure the Grand Priest would lie because this is supposed to be a secret test in character to see if the multiverse should be spared or not. People competing knowing they can save everyone not only kills tension but doesn’t prove anything. People doing the right thing knowing they will be awarded vs. people not being told of it but choosing to do it anyway proves it to Zeno. It is those kinds of zany mind games that deties usually play. The thing the characters don't even consider it among themselves if wishing back the other universes is allowed. It's like they expect us to be surprised that, #17, the guy who wanted to make a dumb wish for a boat which is something he could've gotten a boat on Earth, decided to change his wish to resurrect the other universes. We're supposed to assume that the characters are too scared to ask if it's allowed or even consider to themselves but at the same time assume that the winner is going to make that wish anyway. To be honest, I prefer they go with a more light-hearted saga than pretending to give us something serious and force tension. Sure, I can agree that wanting to wish back his master because he loved him wouldn't be as bad as wanting to gain his approval. That's essentially what I've been saying. These characters are forced to fight each other for a god's amusement so they're in a situation beyond their control. They're not selfish for wanting to protect their loved ones but I'm talking about the execution and showing them more conflicted about sacrificing other universes. I don't think the story is trying to make him look good because it shows that he doesn't care about his teammates and never considered the fate of the other universes. Immediately after revealing his wish, the Z fighters point out how selfish it is. The way they handled him it's like they're saying "Hey this guy is selfish and doesn't value teamwork and friendship so he doesn't deserve to win!". I'm just saying I think it would've been more interesting for him to be a proud member of the Pride Troopers who fought alongside teammates. |
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Post by Axalon on Oct 22, 2018 8:17:22 GMT
As for whether Jiren’s backstory and goal are good concepts separate from how they're written…every now and then in fiction you have a character whose motivation just doesn’t add up with what they’re doing. Like Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. Or Loki from the first Thor movie, who ironically had the exact same motivation and method as Jiren: “I want my mentor’s approval. Better cause genocide to get it!” I personally feel the anime’s take of “my mentor died and now I need to be strong” and the manga’s “my mentor died and now I need his approval” are both insufficient, giving how they portrayed Jiren from the start. Jiren was presented so much as a force that, in my opinion, simply losing a master isn’t enough to justify the sort of person he is and how he acts. Maybe if he’d been given more characterization from the start, such a “mundane” backstory would’ve worked. This is actually why I disliked the manga's version more. This is the same Jiren, mind you, who said that if his universe were in danger he'd just up and leave the tournament immediately--disqualifying himself in the process, robbing his universe of their strongest fighter, and potentially dooming the very universe he left to go save to some cosmic force of nature like Zen-Oh in favor of stopping more sinister threats at home. ...Until suddenly he doesn't mind destroying all the other universes if it means bringing his dead master back for a pat on the head and a "well done son". That...isn't justice. Or heroic. Like at all. Is this Bizarro Jiren or something? This is like the complete opposite of the Jiren from before! What's more, this is the same Jiren who literally FLEW ACROSS THE UNIVERSE to go save the other Pride Troopers from the bubble crab monster or whatever it was, but can't be arsed to save them in the ToP when the fate of his universe is on the line? Manga Jiren is more schizophrenic than freaking Two-Face at times. Why would he go to all that effort to save them in one instance and then just ignore them in the second? Manga Jiren is just confusing. He complains about how "attacking through openings" or whatever isn't a sign of strength, but leaves out the fact that this is EXACTLY what he did to Hit not too long before this! Suckered him into thinking he was about to win, then just shoryukens him off the stage! But when Goku attacks HIS openings suddenly "that isn't real strength!". He rushes across the universe to save his teammates but then doesn't save them when they are a significantly shorter distance away from him. Jiren says he'll refuse to destroy other universes to protect his own, but give him the chance to bring back his dead master and suddenly it's universal destruction time! Gotta win the ToP and he's attacking opponents at the word GO! Manga Jiren is just contradiction after contradiction. It's like Toyotaro wanted to make him more Superman-like, but also wanted to go in the exact opposite route at the same time by also adopting some of Anime Jiren's traits--and these two do not mesh at all. IMO he should've doubled down on making him more like Superman, if for no other reason than just being a contrast to Anime Jiren. Speaking of... Anime Jiren was just " I AM STRENGTH. ALLIES ARE FOR WEAKLINGS." and just rolled with it. It's frustratingly simple, but with one exception was very consistent. Aside from helping Dyspo that one time so that he wasn't mutilated he just minded his own business and only took on challengers as they challenged him. Kale attacked the entire arena, so Jiren just OWARI DAs her. Ribrianne then pulls a Kale and does something similar, but Vegeta beats him to the punch before he can OWARI DA her as well. Belmod tells him to attack Goku, so he does, but he lets Goku throw everything including the kitchen sink Spirit Bomb at him first just to show how outclassed Goku is. Hit interferes with his fight, so he OWARI DAs him as well. Much later Vegeta attacks him, he takes the Final Flash head on, then tells the warrior to sleep, mocks #17's explosion, etc, etc, etc. This is also why Anime Jiren for a while respected Vegeta more than he respected Goku, who was quick to call upon his friends for his ultimate attack when his own solo power proved insufficient (something Jiren decidedly would not do due to his own backstory having a poor result the ONE time he tried that) while Vegeta stubbornly refused to join in the U7 Spirit Bomb. I believe Jiren saw something of a kindred spirit in Vegeta, a fellow warrior (he respected Vegeta enough to call him a warrior after all, even if he said his fighting style lacked purity) who also much preferred to claw it up on his own path and detested teamwork. Vegeta will bend more easily than Jiren of course and give in to things like the evil concept of teamwork more readily, but he has that same streak. This is also all built upon his anime backstory. His parents died, he got traumatized from it and trained to become stronger with a bunch of friends. Those friends then either died or abandoned him, so he got double traumatized and hated the concept of friendship from then on and struck it out on his own. It's an incredibly simplistic story, but at least he stayed a bit more consistent with it than flipping between SUPER NOT SELFISH Jiren and TOTALLY SELFISH Jiren on the flip of a coin. Anime Jiren, up until he realized the Power of Friendship had actually defeated him, simply refused to accept that teamwork and allies was strength at all, in keeping with his backstory. For instance, Vegeta--using his own power and nothing else--overwhelmed GoD Toppo. Toppo had thrown his ideals away for power, while Vegeta stuck to his same ideals and powered through. Jiren? He can respect that because he relates to that! He actually congratulates Vegeta for beating Toppo (his own teammate!) the way he did! Hell, he respected Vegeta to the point that Jiren humored him all the way until Vegeta was so weak even Krillin was calling out how weak his punches were, while calling Hit's "assassin ideals" rubbish and calling Goku interesting for his UIO moment, but ultimately not worth his time. Conversely, he didn't truly respect Goku's strength until he'd lost, and had little reason to do so until then. Goku tried with his own power, failed, then turned to his allies for the Spirit Bomb. Well Jiren beat that too. Then Goku gets helped repeatedly throughout the tournament as everyone left on his team helps cover for him at one point or another while he recovers: - Frieza gives him some energy - Piccolo/Gohan cover him while his guard is down and protect him from the U6 Namekians - The Androids help him deal with the Love Trio people - Vegeta helps a lot Meanwhile Jiren literally does the exact opposite and covers for himself with his meditation shield thing, with Toppo declaring if you can't even break through that you're not worthy of his notice. By the time he fights Goku again, Goku's changed up his fighting style completely and is trying to win through land mines and ring out tricks and team-ups instead of overpowering him, which by now you can imagine would NOT impress someone with Jiren's simple character sthick of power = everything. So Jiren beats Goku so hard he can't even stand up...and then Goku gets helped, AGAIN, with Vegeta giving him the last dregs of his energy. So Jiren beats him to the edge of the ring, again, and then Goku goes UIO and eventually just UI. Goku then has the unmitigated gall to suggest that the Power of Friendship is the greatest of strengths which unhinges Jiren so much by this point that he tries to take out Goku's friends out of sheer, unadulterated rage since everything Goku is saying and doing is running completely contrary to his own life experiences (allies are for weaklings) and everything he's built his entire life around. IMO, I much prefer this more consistent version of Jiren. No. Jiren wasn't.... MAXIMUM enough. I feel like the POV idea with Goku being some kind of insanely powerful freaking final boss is just too clever for DB. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 17:00:28 GMT
AxalonI do think Manga Jiren was promising towards the beginning. I felt his characterization during the preliminary round was more than what Toei had up to that point when the anime ournament was more half way over. I agree Manga Jiren becomes more of a contradiction. Since it doesn't Toei and Toyotaro can stray too far from Toriyama's major plot points, Toyotaro's earlier characterization was pointless since he has to end it with Jiren being a selfish asshole. In this case, Anime Jiren was more consistent or at least consistently bland. It didn't get my hopes up as much as the manga tried to do with him. I was one of the people who wanted to give Jiren the benefit of the doubt because we didn't know much about him yet. I thought there might be a twist or something but I guess the cliche backstory was the twist. They didn't really try to give it an interesting spin and played it straight so I think that might've been intentional. Part of what made Dragonball popular and standout among the other shonen was that Toriyama was a pioneer at the time. Battle shonen today or whatever that subgenre is called would be a lot different if it wasn't for Dragonball. That's why it makes it kinda sad that he resorted to an idea that would be considered common and wouldn't standout much by today's standards. No doubt he's probably out of ideas but he came up with Beerus and Hit who I feel Jiren pales in comparison to. What I liked about BoG and the U6 saga is that they were simple, light-hearted stories but still offered interesting new antagonists and characterization. That's why I prefer to see Jiren as a parody of modern anime since Toriyama didn't seem to put much effort into writing him or care enough to make sure both versions give him the same characterization.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 23, 2018 7:31:45 GMT
@skar I think the twist to Jiren is that there actually isn't a twist. He doesn't have a "final form" that actually shrinks him down to a quarter of his previous size that vastly multiplies his power, he isn't some death machine sucking up weaker death machines to become perfect, and he isn't some magic blob whose personality changes the more he absorbs people/eats himself. He's not a sleepy god who actually loves the thrill of a good fight deep down while he snacks on food, he's not an assassin with 1,000 years of experience who, after being pushed for the first time in a long time also pushes himself farther to match. Jiren...is Jiren. He's not some fake-out like Beerus pulled with Monaka, he simply is. What I *think* Toriyama was going for here was simplicity. Like, in every possible aspect. 1. His design.He doesn't have crazy anime hair, or anything complicated in his design at all. Toriyama hates complicated character design, which is why I find it sad that it's unlikely we'll ever see Cell again (those damn spots!) and why SS3 doesn't make many appearances anymore despite previously being the utmost powerful Super Saiyan form, well, that and power creep. Jiren has a bald head, big eyes, and a sleek spandex costume with a simple red and black color scheme. Compared to Cell it's night and day who would be easier to draw or animate. With this simple design comes... 2. His simple backstory. He's no universal emperor, he's no perfect life-form, he's just The Strong Guy. Why is he The Strong Guy? Because he had a Batman-style traumatizing event (two of them!) that scarred him for life. Annnnd that's about it. Other characters have arguably had far more loss than Jiren suffered, and just as with Batman, they could point to their own losses and Batman's would look miniscule in the grand scheme of things. TL;DR:  ^ That actually wasn't the image I was looking for, but it'll do. Vegeta, like Superman above, can claim far more loss than Jiren has personally suffered. His parents are ALSO dead, his entire PLANET is dead, and he's a member of an endangered species as a result! He also had to play henchman to the person who murdered his father AND his entire planet in the first place to boot! But Jiren isn't about *that* much complexity. But, as with Batman or Future Trunks, this loss defines his entire state of being. Lack of a pair of magical dragons who can bring back the dead tends to do that when people you die get killed. Imagine if Goku actually never died in DBZ, but everyone else close to him did and couldn't come back? Would he still be so carefree? Would he be playing rock-paper-scissors with Vegeta for who gets to fight Kid Buu first mere minutes after Kid Buu killed both of his sons? Or would he get upset like when Krillin died the first time? Or snap like when he thought Krillin was perma-dead the second time? Regardless, simple character design, simple backstory. 3. Simple powers.Jiren doesn't have a gimmick beyond just being REALLY REALLY STRONG. He doesn't have fancy techniques like Piccolo or Gotenks, he doesn't have regeneration like Cell or Buu, he can't stop time, or switch bodies, or suck you into a rice cooker, or transform, or absorb you, or have magic powers, hell, his only "fancy "pose in a team of posers (see what I did there?) is him simply crossing his arms and turning around and declaring OWARI DA. Combine this with... 4. Simple personality. I'll not retread my earlier post about Jiren's consistency, but I think this is also why Toriyama immediately objected to Jiren having what is now Toppo's personality and screaming JUSTICE at the top of his lungs and doing Ginyu-style poses. Jiren, in his mind, simply isn't that fanciful. (That's just my own personal theory, not something Toriyama has said). No, Jiren doesn't pose because that detracts from the simplicity that is Jiren. This is why I still believe Toyotaro should've doubled down on making the manga version DBS Superman as he appeared to be in the earlier sections of the manga with Jiren as opposed to shifting more towards "Meh. I don't care that much" Jiren. Then again Toyotaro also borrowed UIO from Toei as well so perhaps he also borrowed some of Anime Jiren's lack of caring, which I could go into a whole separate rant about and elaborate more of what I was talking about above, but the theme here is simplicity so I'll try and keep this simple as well. 5. (Manga Only) His simple wish and how simply U7 can negate it.
Kind of ties into my point about Future Trunks above, but his wish is pathetically simple. No grand plans for immortality or wiping out all evil in the universes, just bringing his dead master back to life. This is more of a meta point, since by now we're so used to Goku and friends mashing the DB reset button over and over again that we get lines like DBZA Goku going "I mean we have Dragon Balls...but that takes like... A WHOLE DAY! Hey! Gohan hasn't met King Kai!" To Jiren this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, to Goku this is a simple chore, made more aggravating by the fact that people (including on this very forum no less!) have pointed out that Goku mentioning that THEY could just wish his dead master back is just hilarious. What's worse is that U7 might not even need to use DBs to grant Jiren's wish! Yes you read that correctly! No DBs required at all! It's as simple as looking at this guy, who I will call EXHIBIT A:  More specifically, the big freaking glowing halo above his head! That's right! U7 mocks Jiren's wish even further by not even resurrecting people to have the dead interact with the living world! They can just do that! Hell, Fortuneteller Baba did it with freaking Grandpa Gohan just so Goku wouldn't get a free fortune telling and end up paying for it somehow! Jiren's master doesn't even need to be resurrected to fulfill his wish! A simple 24 hours would be all that would be required for a "Well done son, but I really just wanted you to play well with others a bit more." BUT WAIT. IT GETS BETTER.They don't even need to go that far! May I present...EXHIBIT B:  More specifically, the blue cricket man. They don't even need to bring Jiren's master back for 24 hours, they can just have a goddamn Kai let him talk to Jiren for a few minutes! "Well done son, but I really just wanted you to play well with others a bit more." BECAUSE THAT'S LITERALLY ALL JIREN WANTS. RECOGNITION FROM HIS MASTER. He doesn't need to be alive to do it! Not in U7 at any rate! Remember when Goku talked to Gohan after the Cell Games and Gohan was all sad? Yeah, that's all Jiren wants. A goddamn pep talk from beyond death. Gohan got it for free, Jiren has to do it with the fate of his universe at stake. It's so frustratingly simple to grant Jiren's wish here that it's no wonder that DB fans laugh at the simplicity of Jiren's wish, given how overall numb we are to death not mattering at all! In some cases Jiren's simplicity I think works fairly well, in others (like the wish example above) it fails horribly. For better or worse Jiren's defining traits are strength and simplicity, and he oozes those two traits through every pore. It's no small wonder that Jiren is disliked or considered boring compared to an omnicidal body thief god, a prideful prince of a nearly dead race, an emperor with a torture fetish, or the devil himself an evil green slug man. His own simplicity bars him from these flashy descriptions and DB fans (in general) are always looking for the new shiny thing or clamoring for the next Goku powerup, they've been clamoring for Goku to beat Beerus the nanosecond BoG ended after all. I think, in a better type of story arc in DBS, Jiren would've worked better. The Tournament of Power was not the place for him. All the universes kept competing for attention and the "camera", for lack of a better term, can only focus on one thing at a time. It was too dense. But I'll not dwell back on the ToP's failings as a whole since we've discussed them to death many times over already. Jiren should've been in a more tightly knit story, perhaps involving ONLY just his universe and U7, where his trust issues and dismissive attitude of allies could better mirror against Goku's carefree world where death doesn't matter and everyone gradually becomes friends with him except hopefully not Frieza who MUST hate him for all eternity Pls Toriyama don't do this to Frieza pls. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 15:57:53 GMT
AxalonThat's another way to look at it. I feel we're looking for brilliance in a character that was hastily put together. He's likely the least effort Toriyama has put into an antagonist in the entire series. Most of the criteria you mentioned could apply to hundreds of fanfiction OCs and run-of-the-mill anime antagonists. I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama drew a template for a big muscular guy like this filler android and finished it with the quickest alien design he can come up with. I always compare it to fanfiction to see how I'd react without any Toriyama bias. Beerus and Hit are interesting, memorable characters so I think I would still enjoy them coming from another author while some of the other ideas like Jiren wouldn't hold up very well or standout compared to all the times a similar idea has been used. I don't think fans have a problem with him being too simple or not flashy enough for Dragonball. Broly was one of the simplest characters with an even simpler motive than Jiren but one of the most popular characters in the franchise. Broly was literally pure power since he wasn't a trained martial artist like Jiren so DBS Broly quickly overshadows Jiren in that department. In the new movie, they might give base Broly more personality but Toriyama said he wants to retain what made the character popular so I assume Broly's still going to be a raging force of nature in LSSJ. I think Broly works because he's a simple character and it's clear what he's meant to be which gets better reception than a simple character with a half-ass attempt at making them deeper. Broly is a more tragic character so he has more potential to work with as well. I don't have a problem with Jiren personality and there are many badass, stoic men of few words but I just think they offer more than him. I think it would've worked out better if they made him silent and remained more of a man of mystery rather than usually only opened his mouth to tell people to get lost or insult him. I agree he may have turned out better in a different saga with more screentime. Just the way he is I can't see his motive as more than underdeveloped and lazily added in to make it the big conflict of the saga. It feels like Jiren was made to be the asshole who doesn't care about his friends and needs to be taught a lesson at the last minute so they wouldn't have focus on Zeno. If Jiren was a righteous hero with no negative traits they have to work towards then all the focus is on the predicament they're in and having to sacrifice other heroes in Zeno's game. Of course, I have nothing against anyone liking the character and just sharing my view of me. The way he was handled is one of those ideas I've come across before in other anime or fanfiction and hoped not to see in modern Dragonball.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 24, 2018 5:06:57 GMT
I don't think fans have a problem with him being too simple or not flashy enough for Dragonball. Broly was one of the simplest characters with an even simpler motive than Jiren but one of the most popular characters in the franchise. Broly was literally pure power since he wasn't a trained martial artist like Jiren so DBS Broly quickly overshadows Jiren in that department. In the new movie, they might give base Broly more personality but Toriyama said he wants to retain what made the character popular so I assume Broly's still going to be a raging force of nature in LSSJ. I think Broly works because he's a simple character and it's clear what he's meant to be which gets better reception than a simple character with a half-ass attempt at making them deeper. Broly is a more tragic character so he has more potential to work with as well. I agree! Broly is also a simple character, but he was a HYPE simple character. His introduction is to this day misconstrued as him singlehandedly wiping out a galaxy instantaneously. From the word "GO" Broly was built as this axe-crazy maniac destroying more than Frieza ever had. Broly also had the hype as "THE LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYAN" backing him up as well, and was released during a time when the manga was currently in the Cell Saga and the quest to find the "next level" of Super Saiyan was underway. So Toei was able to make Broly relevant to current events while also hyping up Vegeta's old legends he was smack talking Frieza with about not dealing with average Saiyan warriors anymore. All Jiren has is "Guy stronger than a God of Destruction", which isn't insignificant, but suffered from the ToP's pacing problems. If Broly's debut had been in the ToP he'd arguably be at best at the same level of exposure as Jiren, or at worst he'd have as much screentime as his fem-ripoff counterpart. Jiren also suffered from the fact that, up until the end of the ToP he was...stoic. At times dismissive, but stoic. Jiren was, for most of his appearances...well he was boring. I've seen him called that everywhere and it isn't without merit. Hit was also called boring as well upon his debut, though he was saved by further development. Hell, Jiren didn't even get heated up until Goku started to asspull his victory over him, and unlike Broly doesn't have that cool "visual" effect of destroying a galaxy, even though logically he could defeat an army of galaxy-destroying DBZ Brolys and not break a sweat. Most of the hype he had was more centered on "ZOMG GOKU HAS ULTRA INSTINCT?!?!?!" not on anything Jiren himself was doing aside from "ZOMG HE'S NOT LOSING YET". |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 16:34:18 GMT
Axalon I think they did a good job of showing that Jiren was going to be a powerful challenger in the tournament. Toppo was a GoD candidate and put up a good fight against Goku then revealed that Jiren was stronger than himself and their universe's God of Destruction. That already establishes that he's far beyond the last few antagonists and might even be stronger than Beerus before we even meet Jiren. At least I never got the impression that Jiren was underwhelming powerwise. I just meant that him relying on pure power wasn't anything unique to the series. Broly was the purest display of raw power since he wasn't a martial artist and pretty much tanked everything until the end but he was usually seen as a bland character. He was popular among the general fanbase but I was one of the few diehand fans who liked Broly for that. A difference is that Broly needed a legendary transformation while Jiren didn't but Beerus was the first antagonist that didn't have a power-up or transformation. There's not a whole lot different between Beerus and Jiren. They both were mortals who trained to reach that power with the difference being that Beerus accepted the role of GoD while Jiren declined. His motives were even simpler than Jiren's so I think his personality is what made him interesting. He mainly only cared about eating, sleeping, and keeping himself amused like most cats but he was a super strong god so he can do whatever he wants. The premise of the movie was basically him waking up from a random dream about a strong opponent and then spending the rest of it looking for him and hanging fun on Earth. Maybe if Beerus was more serious then BoG wouldn't have been as fun but since he wasn't that serious to begin with then you don't have to take it very seriously. It's the same with Hit. He was a stoic assassin but his only motivation was obtaining the God Cube for some unknown reason. Maybe to take a joy ride across the multiverse or look for new clients. Goku wasn't fighting to teach them a lesson and mainly earn their respect which I thought was cool. I don't think Jiren was necessarily a bad character. There just wasn't a lot about him that would cause me to look forward to seeing him again or learning more about him. I think Toei and Toyotaro deserve credit for trying since Toriyama didn't seem to give them much to start with. I wouldn't be surprised if the wish was Toyotaro's idea because I assume it likely would've been mentioned in the anime if it was specified by Toriyama.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 25, 2018 11:28:27 GMT
@skar
Oh I'm not saying that Jiren wasn't showcased to be powerful--far from it--because Jiren's performance was nothing short of ZOMG SO POWAHFUL. I just think the ToP's failings overall failed basically every character, Jiren included.
Something like the ToP I think should've been one last hurrah. A final meeting of all the great (with emphasis on great) characters that were introduced in a hypothetical many seasons of DBZ/DBS and then jamming them all together for the pleasure of two children to enjoy bloodsport, in an ultimately smaller tournament than what we got but still with a few cool characters on every side and a few new faces here or there perhaps. As it was we had U7 with all fan-favorite characters, U6 with fan-favorites and some new faces, and then everybody else with a couple one-offs we already knew like Toppo or the Trio de Dangers. So now we either have an immense feeling of bloat like Toei's take on it where they try to make even the weakest of the favorite characters have some shine time, or we have Toyotaro's take on it where basically every universe that isn't U7, U6, or U11 is there to waste space and just gets eliminated immediately because he doesn't have time to deal with it because MAXIMUM BROLY is around the corner.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 21:10:55 GMT
AxalonYeah, I think it would've helped if we had a few smaller sagas to introduce some of the characters before jumping to a giant tournament. There are some new characters I would've liked to learn more about there were so many introduced at once not even including all the new gods that only a few major characters got enough screentime. The ones I cared about most were guys we've met in previous sagas like Hit, Cabba, Magetta, and Gowasu. Maybe that was the intention at the beginning when Beerus revealed there were 12 universes in BoG but then Toriyama kinda lost interest? I never expected a saga for each universe but I assumed they would at least visit some of them. The tournaments were held in a neutral area outside of the universes so the only place in another universe they've visited was the U10 Kaioshin planet. Aside from the tournaments, Zamasu was the only enemy that didn't originate from U7. The only reason they fought him was because he came to terrorize Trunks' Earth. If he happened to go to a different universe first, he may have been killed before the Z fighters met him. I think Toriyama may have decided that 12 universes was too much work so he would have a giant battle royale to get most of them out of the way. U6 might be the only universe we ever see again mainly because they also have Saiyans.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 26, 2018 3:30:51 GMT
U6 might be the only universe we ever see again mainly because they also have Saiyans.  I was really hoping we'd be past this point now, what with Frieza getting a crazy powerup, Hit just roflstomping SSB Vegeta, MVP #17, and Jiren's entire existence...but I suppose another way to look at the ToP was that it was indeed one last hurrah...for all the not-Saiyan characters. Especially now that we're rewinding and power creeping Broly to relevance again. It may very well be solely Goku and Vegeta now, without even the pretense of using other characters. Not counting antagonists of course because how else would Goku/Vegeta power creep? |
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 26, 2018 4:19:16 GMT
The only way it will never just be about Saiyans is if it is someone's fan fiction. I'm sure there are more of us vocal minorities that have devoted their time and effort into redoing the Dragon Ball saga and making the power scale more balanced so everyone gets a fair shot.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 5:04:43 GMT
AxalonI guess it eventually it leads back to the Saiyans. In DBS, we saw a few mortals who had huge potential like all the various races that make up the Gods of Destruction, Toppo, and Jiren. Maybe different races have different potential so they eventually fall behind when the Saiyans unlock a new form. Even Freeza might've hit a limit since he probably would've preferred to train a few extra months and have his revenge on his own than rely on another Saiyan. It makes me wonder what they plan to do after Broly. Would he be like Kale and eventually tire out or would he continue growing unless he's able to calm himself down?
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Post by Axalon on Oct 26, 2018 7:44:30 GMT
The only way it will never just be about Saiyans is if it is someone's fan fiction. I'm sure there are more of us vocal minorities that have devoted their time and effort into redoing the Dragon Ball saga and making the power scale more balanced so everyone gets a fair shot. True, but the ToP at first seemed like a good way beyond that. Unfortunately hindsight is 20/20 and it turned out to be a waste of time at best or downright stupid at worst (Goku learning UI by watching Roshi not use UI). I just feel that having the racial advantage of being born a Saiyan really just runs counter to the theme of "train and get better". Sure Goku and Vegeta are always training and getting better, but if Kale and Broly are any indication this might not even be necessary just because they're Saiyans, with no explanation beyond that aside from "Well Broly here is a really STRONG Saiyan, some might even say he's...LEGENDARY!" Axalon I guess it eventually it leads back to the Saiyans. In DBS, we saw a few mortals who had huge potential like all the various races that make up the Gods of Destruction, Toppo, and Jiren. Maybe different races have different potential so they eventually fall behind when the Saiyans unlock a new form. Even Freeza might've hit a limit since he probably would've preferred to train a few extra months and have his revenge on his own than rely on another Saiyan. It makes me wonder what they plan to do after Broly. Would he be like Kale and eventually tire out or would he continue growing unless he's able to calm himself down? Perhaps he's foregoing the extra training since he feels that even if he did surpass Goku, he'd risk getting Ultra Instincted. Maybe Frieza is counting on the fact that Saiyans will just inevitably asspull some new powerup, so he's just getting his OWN Saiyan to fight them so they can just asspull off of each other and hopefully Goku is the one who dies since he's tired of being on the receiving end of it and has died twice for his troubles and he doesn't want to match Krillin in number of total deaths by dying one more time. That's my guess at Frieza's strategy by now. As for after Broly, perhaps Frieza remembers that he has an older brother that he just never mentioned before because he's jealous at how much COOLER his older brother has always been. As for potential, aside from humans I'm not sure if there's an actual limit necessarily, (and even then Tien tried hanging in there for a while) the Saiyans can just tap into theirs far more easily and more quickly since they have so many transformations they've lost count at this point. Frieza was able to find another transformation, but if he hadn't he would've been screwed over in RoF more than he was. Everyone else has to do it the old-fashioned way and just grind xp to progress while the Saiyans have cheat codes and just jump multiple levels ahead. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 14:35:44 GMT
As for potential, aside from humans I'm not sure if there's an actual limit necessarily, (and even then Tien tried hanging in there for a while) the Saiyans can just tap into theirs far more easily and more quickly since they have so many transformations they've lost count at this point. Frieza was able to find another transformation, but if he hadn't he would've been screwed over in RoF more than he was. Everyone else has to do it the old-fashioned way and just grind xp to progress while the Saiyans have cheat codes and just jump multiple levels ahead. That's true they have it easier but I meant for characters who were millions of years old. The Gods of Destruction trained for who knows how many years to the point where they could destroy the universe. Maybe a lot of them have hit their limit. If they went that far, I'm sure at least one GoD in history would've been interested in seeing how much further they could go and try to surpass their Angel. Even if they achieve Ultra Instinct, they would still be weaker than an Angel. The Saiyans will eventually run out of hair colors to change into. It's already impressive enough that a mortal could train and become capable of one-shotting an entire universe or possibly multiple universes at this point but maybe there's no intention for them to keep going until they can do the same to the multiverse and surpass Zeno. |
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Post by Axalon on Oct 27, 2018 3:08:51 GMT
As for potential, aside from humans I'm not sure if there's an actual limit necessarily, (and even then Tien tried hanging in there for a while) the Saiyans can just tap into theirs far more easily and more quickly since they have so many transformations they've lost count at this point. Frieza was able to find another transformation, but if he hadn't he would've been screwed over in RoF more than he was. Everyone else has to do it the old-fashioned way and just grind xp to progress while the Saiyans have cheat codes and just jump multiple levels ahead. That's true they have it easier but I meant for characters who were millions of years old. The Gods of Destruction trained for who knows how many years to the point where they could destroy the universe. Maybe a lot of them have hit their limit. If they went that far, I'm sure at least one GoD in history would've been interested in seeing how much further they could go and try to surpass their Angel. Even if they achieve Ultra Instinct, they would still be weaker than an Angel. The Saiyans will eventually run out of hair colors to change into. It's already impressive enough that a mortal could train and become capable of one-shotting an entire universe or possibly multiple universes at this point but maybe there's no intention for them to keep going until they can do the same to the multiverse and surpass Zeno. Ohhhh you meant beyond the Saiyans. Well then. Perhaps the Angel doesn't LET them get stronger? The whole point of their job is to take care of the GoD and, as seen with both Whis and Vados, stop them if they get a little TOO into their job and are going to destroy too much, whether this is just judo chopping them before they can actually do anything or rewinding time itself to fix things. It'd be much harder to rein in their GoD if they weren't strong enough to deal with them! Alternatively, perhaps the Angel ALSO gets stronger with their GoD to prevent what I described. Perhaps they too train when they aren't babysitting their GoD and so are tapping into more of their potential as well. We know Whis at the very least certainly has the time for it due to Beerus and his proclivity to take decade-long naps, and Beerus is one of the strongest GoDs. For instance, Vados claims that she trained Whis and is a little stronger than he is, but Whis actually disagrees with this assessment and claims that now he's stronger since it had been over a thousand years since Vados initially trained him. That's not even counting EL GRANDE PADRE who babysits two Zen-Ohs! As for the GoDs themselves I'm not sure how much of it is was simply due to training versus simply acquiring destruction god ki and getting a massive power boost. Like, just getting the job gives you the requisite power to carry out your function. It seems like most GoDs, that we've seen at any rate, simply don't care about training. Hell, the only one we know that does train from time to time is Beerus, and he takes fairly long breaks in-between sessions at times. I'm not saying training isn't involved whatsoever since Whis has been trying to get Goku or Vegeta interested in the job for a while now, plus Toppo is directly a candidate in his own universe, but we know that just including the anime Vegeta was able to overpower a fledgling GoD, while if we include the manga we now have UI Goku and Jiren as mortals who have gone beyond, plus Broly is on the horizon as well. Surely if mere training could get you that far there'd be no need for the destructive god ki powerup. I think it's likely that it's a combination of both, and that once a threshold of power has been met you're given a boost. Goku, Jiren and Broly are simply aberrations. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 4:40:57 GMT
Perhaps the Angel doesn't LET them get stronger? The whole point of their job is to take care of the GoD and, as seen with both Whis and Vados, stop them if they get a little TOO into their job and are going to destroy too much, whether this is just judo chopping them before they can actually do anything or rewinding time itself to fix things. It'd be much harder to rein in their GoD if they weren't strong enough to deal with them! Well what's to say they wouldn't intervene when a mortal surpasses a certain threshold of power? As far as we know, the only being to actually go through with destroying any universes was Zeno when he erased those six universes. Throughout history, there could've been countless GoDs, candidates, and other GoD tier mortals but there was always something to prevent them from destroying a universe. If the Angels are there to prevent the GoDs from doing it, it makes sense there would be someone out there to prevent a mortal from training really hard and wiping out a universe. That's why I can't get behind the idea that they would keep churning out +universe busting antagonists for several sagas with every stronger God out there just watching while only Goku and Vegeta deal with them. This movie might be when we learn what they do when a non-GoD threats the universe since Broly probably will towards the end. I think Hakai is just a technique they can learn but may not necessarily give them a power-up. Beerus is over 75 million years so he could've done all his training millions of years ago and then grew bored since he's not allowed to use his full power anyway. Jiren and MUI Goku were stronger than a GoD but it wasn't specified how much stronger they were. A battle between Beerus and MUI Goku could still be close and maybe almost equal once Beerus masters the technique. Depending how far Broly's power grows, that could be the upper limit of what a mortal could reach. The Angels, Grand Priest and Zeno might be seen as cosmic beings who have existed since the beginning of time or whatever so Toriyama may not intend for them to be within reach for mortals. This is just speculation of course. Considering how many sagas it took Goku to surpass Beerus after facing him in BoG, I don't think Toriyama would want to dedicate a few more years so that Goku could surpass each one of those higher deities one at a time every few sagas. |
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 27, 2018 5:42:10 GMT
The only way it will never just be about Saiyans is if it is someone's fan fiction. I'm sure there are more of us vocal minorities that have devoted their time and effort into redoing the Dragon Ball saga and making the power scale more balanced so everyone gets a fair shot. True, but the ToP at first seemed like a good way beyond that. Unfortunately hindsight is 20/20 and it turned out to be a waste of time at best or downright stupid at worst (Goku learning UI by watching Roshi not use UI). I just feel that having the racial advantage of being born a Saiyan really just runs counter to the theme of "train and get better". Sure Goku and Vegeta are always training and getting better, but if Kale and Broly are any indication this might not even be necessary just because they're Saiyans, with no explanation beyond that aside from "Well Broly here is a really STRONG Saiyan, some might even say he's...LEGENDARY!" I would love for the others to be allowed to be as strong as the Saiyans. I’m sick of people get annoyed at Krillin or Yamecha for being weak like it is their fault even though we have seen them train hard, but not have as much hax as the Saiyans. I just really don’t expect much. I expect more from fan fiction on this front because there a chance someone might make a story where things are more balanced so human characters could stay near ballpark with Piccolo and the Saiyans so they are at least competitive. If canon just gave us hax and cheap power up for the humans and Piccolo that put them on the Saiyans level I would gladly swallow it no matter how outlandish the power up is. The truth is having the whole gang somewhat near each other so they can all fight is better than just seeing Vegeta and Goku fight. They don’t even need to change the format of Goku winning against the main antagonist as long as the others got a fair shake and beat underlings. |
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Post by Axalon on Oct 27, 2018 7:42:35 GMT
Well what's to say they wouldn't intervene when a mortal surpasses a certain threshold of power? If Jiren is anything to go by, then if there is a certain limit then it hasn't been hit by a mortal yet, plain and simple. MUI Goku is also not yet on the level either. Then again we're all just speculating on a bunch of poorly written stuff and I'm just throwing out random theories. I believe the simplest answer is again just lack of power. Mortals even close to a GoD aren't common, as once again people like Goku, Vegeta and Jiren are exceptions, not the rule. As we're in the manga thread even Hit doesn't qualify! Consider, for the longest time the strongest mortal in U7 was Majin Buu, who Beerus could sneeze on and obliterate. Behind him, like, VERY behind him, was Frieza, and it wasn't until the advent of Goku that Saiyans became notable at all. I'm not counting Yamoshi because he confuses me. Other universes had stronger mortals like Toppo, but as he was already a GoD candidate he's automatically part of that rare and select group of individuals. I believe that *should* be the job of the God of Destruction. When Zamasu was doing his thing Beerus made sure to HAKAI him, and HAKAI him good. Sure, Zamasu was a god and not a mortal, but the same principle should apply. If Beerus and the Supreme Kais were all doing their jobs then Bibidi and Kid Buu wouldn't have been issues either. I agree, perhaps this is the movie where Beerus and Whis do something besides eat ice cream for once. I don't mean HAKAI, I mean just godly destruction ki. The kind that Toppo used in the anime that Vegeta had to blast off that destroyed anything it came in contact with. THAT was the powerup. He quite literally became a GoD and got a powerup for his efforts. Now sure that was anime only, but so far it's the only instance we have of someone turning into a GoD. HAKAI is indeed just a technique, as Manga Goku showed by him using it despite never having seen it and also despite him not being a GoD. But if Beerus masters the technique, wouldn't MUI Beerus be stronger than MUI Goku? Super has established that mastery of UI is a massive powerup, so logically (I know, bringing logic into DBS is foolish) Beerus would likewise receive a powerup, and since he's already stronger than Goku without UI anyway... I never underestimate Toriyama's capacity to wank Goku up to new heights. Quite honestly I'm surprised he was able to contain himself for this long in regards to Goku and Beerus. I wouldn't be surprised if the Broly movie allows Goku to just master the damn thing and flick it on and off like a light switch. I would love for the others to be allowed to be as strong as the Saiyans. I’m sick of people get annoyed at Krillin or Yamecha for being weak like it is their fault even though we have seen them train hard, but not have as much hax as the Saiyans. I just really don’t expect much. I expect more from fan fiction on this front because there a chance someone might make a story where things are more balanced so human characters could stay near ballpark with Piccolo and the Saiyans so they are at least competitive. If canon just gave us hax and cheap power up for the humans and Piccolo that put them on the Saiyans level I would gladly swallow it no matter how outlandish the power up is. The truth is having the whole gang somewhat near each other so they can all fight is better than just seeing Vegeta and Goku fight. They don’t even need to change the format of Goku winning against the main antagonist as long as the others got a fair shake and beat underlings. Sadly, I feel like "Everyone else defeats generic and secondhand Frieza Soldiers that weren't a threat in the Namek Saga" is the best we're going to get nowadays. Maaaaaaybe we'll see Piccolo kill one of Frieza's new lieutenants in the Broly movie, but the guy's already exhausted his best people on Namek, then lost his second best on Earth, so these guys are literally his C-Team now. |
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 27, 2018 16:26:38 GMT
They should all just cheat and have Bulma turn them into cyborgs superior to SSGSS. Bulma just needs to get data on Goku and Vegeta’s max then she make Krillin, Yamecha, Tien, and Piccolo all stronger than Goku and Vegeta then from there when they train they can keep up or ahead. Goku and Vegeta are too prideful to ever try that themselves. Everyone wins there.
Next time a villain takes advantage of the Saiyans need for a challenge we can let it slide and trust one of the more responsible humans or Piccolo to take care of it.
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