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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 19, 2018 3:23:25 GMT
If that truly the case, this makes me a little bit more excited about the next arc. Who is this villain that only the Grand Supreme Kai can help with? Is it possible it is the same "villain" that destroyed Jiren's childhood in some fashion? So many questions at this point I cannot help but to ask for. But to me, basically Fat Buu is like the potara fusion of both Grand and South Kai with Kid Buu's body being the basis. If they do extract Grand Kai from him (which only the Super Dragon Balls could accomplish), will Buu basically become Buff Buu, or something entirely different? His power hypothetically speaking should plummet, but Grand Kai actually lowered it upon being absorbed thanks to his inherited good morals. And as a fission separated from Kid Buu, the cards are in the air on what will actually occur to the pudgy djinn. But I do hope that Grand Kai will eventually merge himself with Buu once everything is resolved. It wouldn't feel right continuing dragon ball with Buu being incomplete.
I don't see why normal Dragon Balls wouldn't be able to accomplish it since normal Dragon Balls were enough to defuse Kibitokai. I don't think the matter of time should make any difference here since Kibitokai wasn't any less of a permanent fusion than is the case with Fat Buu. Now if the Super Dragon Balls get used, I could totally see them just bringing back a duplicate of the GSK and possibly even South Supreme Kai too w/o any negative repercussions to Fat Buu at all, whereas normal Dragon Balls could have the repercussions you are talking about since they would only be capable of defusing instead of cloning, which the Super Dragon Balls should be capable of doing.
It more complicated with Buu. Both South and Grand have been merged for millions of years to the point they virtually ceased to exist. I do not see either Shenron or Porunga being strong enough to safely remove, or just plain old remove Grand Kai at all from Buu. Especially if Fat Buu refuses to consent. In Kibito-Kai's case, it was consensual. We have no idea how Buu will react. It might work, but then again it might not. But for guaranteed success, it will be more ideal to summon Super Shenron since he can make it happen safely. But I think no cloning will happen as you suggested. The writers for dragon ball are likely to never use logic in their scripts to avoid the potential destabilize effects that might fall on Fat Buu. The drama that might bring is too good to pass up on. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 3:42:07 GMT
If this is true, how will this affect Buu's psyche, let alone his current form? And will the strange reasoning why U7 had five supreme kai's instead of one will finally be explained? We see Buu in EoZ so whatever changes happen to him would only be temporary  . I wonder how powerful this criminal could be? Kid Buu would've likely killed all five Kaioshin if he didn't absorb South and Grand Kaioshin. This criminal might be a magician if they need Grand Kaioshin's help specifically and not just anyone more powerful. I also wonder how the Galactic Patrol knows about him. He was absorbed five million years ago so that criminal must've been in jail even longer than that! I hope this is different than Demigra from Xenoverse who was an ancient-er Demon than Buu that was sealed by a Kaioshin. |
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 19, 2018 3:49:27 GMT
If this is true, how will this affect Buu's psyche, let alone his current form? And will the strange reasoning why U7 had five supreme kai's instead of one will finally be explained? We see Buu in EoZ so whatever changes happen to him would only be temporary . I wonder how powerful this criminal could be? Kid Buu would've likely killed all five Kaioshin if he didn't absorb South and Grand Kaioshin. This criminal might be a magician if they need Grand Kaioshin's help specifically and not just anyone more powerful. I also wonder how the Galactic Patrol knows about him. He was absorbed five million years ago so that criminal must've been in jail even longer than that! I hope this is different than Demigra from Xenoverse who was an ancient-er Demon than Buu that was sealed by a Kaioshin. Perhaps this was the original villain Old Kai mentioned that sealed him in the Z-Sword before being retconned as Beerus lol. A XXI type of foe. I do like the concept of it being a magician. Magic in the actual series has always been downplayed compared to its usage in spinoffs, video games, or plain old doujinshi. I would love to see Goku dealing with illusions akin to Naruto genjutsu. And your right. I forgot all about EoZ, unless Toriyama is lying to us all along about not retconning that too. Still, with everything that has happened in Super, it feels weird that the series will end on EoZ's notion. I can feel something brewing that will replace that miniature story arc. |
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 19, 2018 4:36:49 GMT
I actually just thought of something else that could happen that wouldn't require the Dragon Balls necessarily. What-if they use hypnosis or some sorta magic to bring the GSK part of Buu's mind to the forefront and just have that part of Buu take temporary control? Basically they could have GSK present w/o having to separate him from Buu or create a clone of him. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 4:49:47 GMT
Xeno BlackThis saga takes place shortly after Broly which was shortly after the ToP so they're likely only a few weeks to a few months apart. I think Toriyama is really trying to cram as much content into these last few years before EoZ as he can. They've already mentioned Uub in DBS so I'm not sure if Toriyama would retcon EoZ just to replace it with a different first encounter with Uub. They'll probably keep having new sagas taking place shortly after each other with Goku and Vegeta getting the most screentime. Goten and Trunks will remain background characters never aging until they get a growth spurt a day before EoZ .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 17:21:20 GMT
Here's a summary of the manga's ToP ending:
So apparently Zeno having the tournament as a test was anime-only and there's no mention of wiping out the rest of the universes if the winner made a selfish wish. I don't think Toyotaro could omit that if it was from Toriyama which makes it worse in my opinion because Toriyama didn't care enough to specify Zeno's intent behind the tournament. I really hope they stick to shorter storylines because it doesn't seem that anyone involved was invested in such a long saga.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 22, 2018 5:14:55 GMT
IT'S OVER, THE TOP IS FINALLY OVER  Thank Freaking POPO that this goddamn tournament is finally over. Holy crap. Aside from a couple of panels that genuinely had good paneling (the Frieza ones) I gotta say the big climactic fight of the ToP was incredibly underwhelming and captured none of the energy of Anime!Goku/Frieza/#17 slugging it out with Jiren. Vegeta also kinda just...gets knocked out unceremoniously. Hell, the end of the ToP seemed like more of an afterthought to Toyotaro, who seems much more interested in pushing his post-Broly story. Imagine if after Gohan defeating Cell the very next page was the jump to the Buu Saga. Not a separate chapter, like literally the next page because Toriyama was tired of Cell and just wanted to get on to Buu right away. That's what this feels like. The ToP was so rushed it was jammed in with the prologue to the next story arc! Also apparently post-Broly Vegeta is also right back to I AM NEVER EVER EVER EVER WORKING WITH YOU AGAIN KAKAROT. Not a "I'm never fusing with you again", but literally a "Never fight side-by-side with you again". This is a post-ToP, post-Broly Vegeta. Just...why? I don't really buy Goku not getting UI anymore given how he got it in the manga ToP. Anime Goku not getting it makes a bit more sense given what he had to go through initially to get UI, but Manga Goku just watched Roshi explicitly not use UI, and then just used UI instantly. So while Anime Goku might need another extreme pressure situation again, why can't Manga Goku just watch Roshi dodge someone again? Doesn't make sense. Which brings me to my next questions... 1. Did Goku/Vegeta seriously get knocked out by tasers? Excuse me, SPACE tasers? We literally just had a tournament with fighters rivaling the mighty GoDs themselves, if not surpassing them, and then THIS happens? Seriously? Even if you pull the "Well Goku was just caught off guard" lame ass excuse, *again*, WELL THEN WHY WAS VEGETA CAUGHT OFF GUARD AFTER GOKU WAS CAUGHT OFF GUARD? You're seriously telling me that Vegeta couldn't react fast enough to some guy going behind him and pulling a "nothing personal kid" after watching it happen to Goku? If so, and Vegeta truly could not react to him then... 2. Where was this guy when Namek Saga Frieza was conquering the universe? Or those guns for that matter? Just have Jaco Space Taze Frieza and be done with it! Why were the Saiyans EVER a problem? In fact, why not get THIS guy to join the ToP and not some useless person like Krillin? 3. So if the Grand Supreme Kai is actually STILL INSIDE BUU and hasn't been digested or whatever...shouldn't Future Beerus still have been a thing? Because Future Buu was still sealed away in Future Trunks' timeline, no? And Future Grand Supreme Kai is still sealed away in Future Buu. So...Future Beerus should've just HAKAI'd Goku Black and saved us all from that godawful Black Saga no? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2018 3:18:28 GMT
Design of the new prisoner. I like it! I would've preferred a more unique alien design but at least he's modeled after a cool animal. |
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Post by Andres on Nov 25, 2018 17:26:52 GMT
Design of the new prisoner. I like it! I would've preferred a more unique alien design but at least he's modeled after a cool animal.
Am I the only one? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2018 21:54:22 GMT
I swear to god, I see Hit. Hit with horns and beard. Am I the only one?  The eyes and gaze are similar but they have different ears, nose, mouth, forehead, and skin color. |
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Post by Jason9000 on Nov 26, 2018 11:10:53 GMT
Design of the new prisoner. I like it! I would've preferred a more unique alien design but at least he's modeled after a cool animal.
Am I the only one?Spoilers, he’s Hit’s father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 1:00:24 GMT
I was thinking about the ToP and curious how Toriyama's version would've turned out. We're told both versions cover his entire outline but the anime had 55 episodes vs the manga having only 16 chapters. That's 16 chapters including all the content Toyotaro borrowed from the anime and added himself so Toriyama's version would've been even shorter and more fast-paced. It's funny is that his original draft may have been the closest to an actual battle royale. The anime had most of the universes wait in line to fight U7 so U7 had more eliminations than the other seven universes combined. The manga gave U7 the most eliminations until Kale went berserk and wiped out a few universes. Kale was Toei's idea and Toriyama only came up with Caulifa afterwards so he may have had weaker, fodder characters like Dr. Rota fill in their spots. It was said that Toriyama designed Ribraine but her whole clash of ideals with #18 was Toei's idea so Toriyama may not have planned for her to have a big role. The bug man was likely Toriyama's idea since he eliminated Piccolo in both versions. I'm not sure which other characters would've gotten much screentime aside from the big three of U11. It's a shame they never release his original outline for the sagas. Toriyama usuall gets all the credit for DBS because many assume they writes everything. At least if we know what ideas come from Toriyama, Toyotaro, or Toei then they can get the credit they deserve (or blame if it's bad). Edit: Here's the interview with Toei's producer and series director where they discuss the saga: www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-ball-official-site-the-artisans-who-made-the-universe-survival-arc/ |
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Post by iron leaf on Dec 21, 2018 22:09:58 GMT
Ok, who got XXI vibes from Moro in the latest DBS Manga chapter?
The Galactic Patrolmen are supposed to be at least 10 million years old? And Toyotaro unlike Toeyama remembered there were 5 Supreme Kais. Imagine Toyotaro read DBM and confused why there is no in-universe explanation why Grand Supreme Kai is supposed to be the weakest, decided to give an actual explanation why he is in DBS though.
But did Toyotaro play Red Dead Redemption 2 because I cannot explain otherwise why he would decide to include a train robbery into Dragonball. 
Btw. I always imagined in DBM how Goku & Vegeta somehow would work with the Heloïte together and that they would even wear their Ultra armor at some point. And here we are in DBS where the Galactic Patrolmen invited Goku and Vegeta to join them temporarily and even proposed they could wear their armor. (Honestly, I felt like Toyotaro took my idea and planted it in DBS somehow, I was positively surprised. Nonetheless, Galactic Patrolmen in Dragonball Super seem weird to me. Way too goofy. It's like Toriyama said to Toyotaro "Jacko and DB Minus are now canon and you have to incorporate that shit in DBS now.
It's weird to me that Modern Dragonball tries to push the "Goku & Vegeta are the most iconic duo ever and will solve every new problem in DB together" schtick. They are not Bud Spencer & Terrence Hill. I'm afraid that in a few years people will argue that the Goku-Vegeta duo was always a thing and that they were always best buddies and nobody else is allowed to join this duo. Did you guys remember the GT hate argument that Gt is Goku Time? DBS on the other hand is getting more, and more, and more the Goku&Vegeta Show. Everything is only portrayed from their viewpoint.)
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 21, 2018 22:51:03 GMT
I was also thinking about how DBS could have worked a lot better as some sort of hybrid of DBZ and GT, if RoF and all the filler sagas that had no repercussions other than additional transformations (such as U6, ToP, RoF) were to be eliminated.
Parting after Battle of the Gods, we could have used Zamasu saga (with better planning and execution) as a first saga of DBS. Since Supreme Kais and GoD's had been introduced in the 2 previous sagas, it would have been a good continuation of lore to resume with kaioshin stuff. Though it had lots of faults (and all of them were due to retcons or stuff that had no in-story impacts) it was mostly the best saga of DBS, or the only thing that could arguably be considered a saga in the first place.
This Moro saga would have been a good continuation of it since it also deals a lot with Kaioshin lore. DBS would have felt a lot more organic and distinctive like this. I haven't yet seen the Broly movie so I can't evaluate it in regards to history.
Also, rather unpopular opinion but I'd just do away with God KI altogether. SSJGoD and whatever official name SSJBlue had before just would be known as SSJ4 and SSJ5. Also no ultra instinct, given that it was just a boring one shot thing to justify Goku beating a GoD level opponent that ultimately didn't matter nor will appear in the series again at the end.
Also, given how wasted they were, I'd just forget about all the other 11 universes. They really did not matter at the end, except for Zamasu. In fact, Zamasu is the only thing that conflicts me since he and Gowasu just could not exist in U7. Other universes are so irrelevant everyone other than Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo and Hit were shit. So much that they're still finding warriors just as strong just in U7, like Broly or Moros.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2018 23:14:03 GMT
This was a pretty good chapter! This ancient sealed/dormant antagonist trope has been overdone in Dragonball but it's the most believable way to make someone threatening. The other recent enemies originating from U7 quickly powered-up to become a challenge like Freeza's four months or Broly surpassing SSJB in a few minutes.
I like that Moros is a magician and his power reminds me of Galactus. If GK had to give up his "Godly power" to defeat him, I wonder if Goku and Vegeta might have to do the same. It's unlikely but it seems like a pretty specific detail compared to a simpler explanation like a sealing spell or technique. What happened to him in the Future timeline? I guess he's still sealed assuming whatever lead to his release after 10 million years was caused by something from a previous saga.
I'm not sure how I feel about that Meerus guy. The Galactic Patrol feared Freeza's army and the Saiyans so the only explanation for this guy is that he's pretty young and joined after Freeza died on Namek. It would be interesting if he's evil and working to help Moros regain his power. I don't think we've ever had a single antagonist in a saga and there's usually a duo or a leader with his henchmen so Moros might not be acting alone.
Also I saw this message from Toyotaro. It sounds like he came up with this saga with supervision from Toriyama:
We've finally entered a new chapter! It's a completely new work that's not in the anime or anywhere else. Unlike Jaco, this Merus guy in the first chapter is a genuine elite member of the Galactic Patrol! Just how strong is he really?! Why has he come to Earth?! And who's this criminal that he says has escaped?! With the 'Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc', I'm teaming up with Toriyama-sensei and getting a lot of praise as I make it! I'm hoping to make it an enjoyable story that will thrill you all, so please look forward to it! The booklet includes a reprint of the arc opening in Chapter 42.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 21:57:51 GMT
New chapter! We learn Moro is heading to New Namek for an unknown wish and accompanied by a former Freeza soldier. I hope his wish isn't his youth back! Not much else to comment on but next chapter we get to see Moro in action and what kind of magic he's capable of. My favorite scene this chapter: Vegeta finally acknowledges the poor Nameks he killed before and why he won't allow Moro to harm them. This is the Post-Buu saga Vegeta I would like to see more. 
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Jan 22, 2019 22:58:37 GMT
New chapter! We learn Moro is heading to New Namek for an unknown wish and accompanied by a former Freeza soldier. I hope his wish isn't his youth back!
I think his wish is the obvious wish of his power being restored to what it was pre-GSK stealing/sealing it away. As for his youth coming back, I think that would happen upon him getting his power back or stealing some more from other planets.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 0:01:03 GMT
I think his wish is the obvious wish of his power being restored to what it was pre-GSK stealing/sealing it away. As for his youth coming back, I think that would happen upon him getting his power back or stealing some more from other planets. Yeah that's the obvious wish. King Piccolo and Slug wished for their youth back in order to restore the power they had in their prime so his might be a similar wish except asking for his power back directly. Moro already has some similarities with King Piccolo like being an ancient imprisoned demon who is after the Dragonballs with the help of a weak former villain (Pilaf/this Freeza soldier). |
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Post by Xeno Black on Jan 25, 2019 0:24:52 GMT
If I may add to this discussion, I find Moro to be highly intriguing among the new pantheon of villains introduced. A wizard-like goat who has similarities to both XXI and Galactus already makes him captivating, but the fact his backstory is so vast and mysterious (fighting against two kaioshins, imprisoned for over ten million years, etc), he is a treasure trove for us fanfiction writers to expand upon. I am already curious about: 1): How did he learn magic? Was it a innate talent or did he learned it from a second source? 2): Does he have any connections to Bibidi or Majin Buu? He is old enough to encounter either before and after Bibidi released Buu from his slumber. 3): Why does he care so little about others? Did he had the Jiren treatment in childhood and fell into total darkness, or was his species always violent and took it a step further? 4): Was is the one wish he wants from Porunga? Is it the restoration of his youth, or something much more sinister or simpler? In hindsight it is nearly guaranteed that Moro was always among the strongest mortals to be seen in U7. Way before the empire of Frieza's lineage started. I am still positive that Beerus and Whis can take him out, but the likes of Broly, Frieza, and the Z-Fighters (mainly Goku and Vegeta) will be hard pressed against a foe such as this. His ability to bend reality and manipulate the fabric of creation will be incredibly difficult to overcome. Even Goku's spirit bomb will be useless since Moro can simply drain the life energy/ki from it. The likes of Piccolo (who has the potential to master advanced magic), Android 17 (who has unlimited ki), Jiren (his immense power), and Hit (via Time-Skip) might become necessary in this upcoming battle. Especially Fat Buu. Perhaps he will attain his skinny form like in the anime and somehow tap into his dormant kaioshin abilities. For all we know, Buu's regenerative properties healed Grand Kai's sealed ki and can now use the powers of a true god. You never know! But I am hoping to see this in a future chapter: This will not only hype up fans to see this saga adapted into the second season of Super, but will be a neat tie-in to the Broly movie. I for one would like to see this since it will be the official second canon appearance of one of the coolest fusions around. And the idea to see a Big Bang Kamehameha one more time is too good to pass up on. And since it is the manga, the possibility to witness Perfected Gogeta Blue or even Ultra Instinct would be mouthwatering. And thanks to his track record, his appearance would almost guarantee a victory since he is known to end or be very close to finish major battles. Janemba, Omega Shenron, and Broly are all testaments to that. Moro will likely not be a exception to the rule. I am hooked for the next chapter. |
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Post by Axalon on Feb 4, 2019 1:35:30 GMT
So I've been catching up to the manga.
1. Going off of how Goku and co. describe Moro's ki it sounds like everyone he eats doesn't go to the afterlife. They just get trapped in him. That's cool. He's kind of like a Janemba, except instead of all evil to ever exist in one form, he's all the souls he's ever sucked down a soda straw. I can't wait to see this translate to him punching harder than Goku and Goku punching him even harder back, but hey, maybe something good will come of it.
2. The Supreme Kais and Beerus/Whis really need to work better on their communication. Much like the entire Kid Buu incident, this all could've been avoided with just a smidgen of actual thought. God power would never had to have been given up when a simple HAKAI would've fixed everything. I still don't get how Beerus is considered a myth by the GP when they already know the existence of the Kais and have a prisoner defeated by them in custody for literally millions of years.
3. Vegeta already had to use a god form to fight him since SS1 wasn't doing the trick. Moro himself barely has any of his old power left and simply scanning the universe left him tired, with him implying that such an act normally wouldn't be exhausting. I'm going to go ahead and assume him regaining his youth just like King Piccolo just like Lord Slug is a bygone conclusion. I am therefore going to assume that we see either Gogeta, Vegito, or UI Goku come out to beat him, given how far Vegeta's already had to go to fight his extremely weakened self. Or some combination thereof.
4. Vegeta recognizing what he did to the Namekians was a nice little moment.
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