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Post by Blaze on Jun 21, 2021 8:37:22 GMT
Really not a fan of this chapter. It was mostly just fighting with nothing that interested me much. Also, Goku's continual use of senzu against Granolah is annoying. And ffs, just go all out against him. Why go through your levels? It's clear that he has the ability to one shot you thanks to his skill.
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Post by squirz96 on Jun 21, 2021 18:02:40 GMT
Really not a fan of this chapter. It was mostly just fighting with nothing that interested me much. Also, Goku's continual use of senzu against Granolah is annoying. And ffs, just go all out against him. Why go through your levels? It's clear that he has the ability to one shot you thanks to his skill. Well that's dragon ball and Goku for you. Goku always tests his opponents strength before going all out. At least in vast majority of cases. I believe that next and maybe even the one after that would be mostly action sequences. It is clear that Granola would defeat Vegeta. Even if we would have extremely unlikely scenario where Vegeta eventually defeats Granola it won't happen in next chapter. Too much build up to end this here and now. I predict that next chapter would end up with Granola starting to hunt down for Frieza believing that he killed both Goku and Vegeta.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 22, 2021 0:28:05 GMT
Really not a fan of this chapter. It was mostly just fighting with nothing that interested me much. Also, Goku's continual use of senzu against Granolah is annoying. And ffs, just go all out against him. Why go through your levels? It's clear that he has the ability to one shot you thanks to his skill. Well that's dragon ball and Goku for you. Goku always tests his opponents strength before going all out. At least in vast majority of cases. I believe that next and maybe even the one after that would be mostly action sequences. It is clear that Granola would defeat Vegeta. Even if we would have extremely unlikely scenario where Vegeta eventually defeats Granola it won't happen in next chapter. Too much build up to end this here and now. I predict that next chapter would end up with Granola starting to hunt down for Frieza believing that he killed both Goku and Vegeta. is that always the case though? I recall he went all out against buu in the manga and went ssj3 right away. vegeta even says don't hold back on my account, I don't need a turn and gokus like "I'm trying, but I can't get a clean opening to wipe him out all at once" I don't recall if goku held back on cell like in the anime, and the ssj3 vs vegeta thing was explained as such he didn't want to burn through his time on earth. Any lower kaioken levels are pretty much "I don't want to kill myself if I can avoid it, so maybe I'll hold off on x3...." Goku did have a "battle power" he used on strong guys who could take it and a laid back power for weaklings in db as a kid. this was before ki sensing though. Though my memories a bit foggy. If I'm off, elaborate because I do enjoy beign proven wrong on occasion. and with my health right now, I will be prone to mental mistakes.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 22, 2021 1:01:20 GMT
Well that's dragon ball and Goku for you. Goku always tests his opponents strength before going all out. At least in vast majority of cases. I believe that next and maybe even the one after that would be mostly action sequences. It is clear that Granola would defeat Vegeta. Even if we would have extremely unlikely scenario where Vegeta eventually defeats Granola it won't happen in next chapter. Too much build up to end this here and now. I predict that next chapter would end up with Granola starting to hunt down for Frieza believing that he killed both Goku and Vegeta. is that always the case though? I recall he went all out against buu in the manga and went ssj3 right away. vegeta even says don't hold back on my account, I don't need a turn and gokus like "I'm trying, but I can't get a clean opening to wipe him out all at once" I don't recall if goku held back on cell like in the anime, and the ssj3 vs vegeta thing was explained as such he didn't want to burn through his time on earth. Any lower kaioken levels are pretty much "I don't want to kill myself if I can avoid it, so maybe I'll hold off on x3...." Goku did have a "battle power" he used on strong guys who could take it and a laid back power for weaklings in db as a kid. this was before ki sensing though. Though my memories a bit foggy. If I'm off, elaborate because I do enjoy beign proven wrong on occasion. and with my health right now, I will be prone to mental mistakes. Goku actually blatantly didn't go all out on Buu. Both times. The first time he wanted to give the next gen the spotlight and when asked by Piccolo if he could've beaten Buu if he went all out Goku went "lol maybe" with that cheeky tone. Second time against Kid Buu he held back in order to give Vegeta a turn, before the weight of "oh shit I can't maintain this" hit like a sledgehammer.
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Post by Blaze on Jun 22, 2021 9:58:13 GMT
Well that's dragon ball and Goku for you. Goku always tests his opponents strength before going all out. At least in vast majority of cases. I believe that next and maybe even the one after that would be mostly action sequences. It is clear that Granola would defeat Vegeta. Even if we would have extremely unlikely scenario where Vegeta eventually defeats Granola it won't happen in next chapter. Too much build up to end this here and now. I predict that next chapter would end up with Granola starting to hunt down for Frieza believing that he killed both Goku and Vegeta. is that always the case though? I recall he went all out against buu in the manga and went ssj3 right away. vegeta even says don't hold back on my account, I don't need a turn and gokus like "I'm trying, but I can't get a clean opening to wipe him out all at once" I don't recall if goku held back on cell like in the anime, and the ssj3 vs vegeta thing was explained as such he didn't want to burn through his time on earth. Any lower kaioken levels are pretty much "I don't want to kill myself if I can avoid it, so maybe I'll hold off on x3...." Goku did have a "battle power" he used on strong guys who could take it and a laid back power for weaklings in db as a kid. this was before ki sensing though. Though my memories a bit foggy. If I'm off, elaborate because I do enjoy beign proven wrong on occasion. and with my health right now, I will be prone to mental mistakes. He went all out against Kid Buu. Him holding out so Vegeta could have a turn was just anime filler iirc, Goku straight out said he wasn't trying to give Vegeta a turn in the manga. Goku and Cell both had a brief practice sesh before powering up. Goku did purposely not kill Fat Buu, because he wanted others to do so (makes him look like a selfish bastard considering his role in Buu's resurrection, as an aside). But he also didn't try fight Buu as a SSJ or SSJ2. Going off of what I recall from Goku's fights in the 'Z' part... He went all out against Raditz pretty quickly, through taking off his weights. He took Nappa seriously, and like you said the Kaioken isn't something to be used too lightly. He used it against Nappa when his power was insufficient to protect Gohan. He took Vegeta very seriously. He was able to stomp Recoome and Burter without really trying. Also was comfortable letting them go since they weren't a threat. I don't really remember how he handled the rest of the Namek Arc. He seemed to take #19 very seriously. He didn't try fight him in base. Or use Kaioken. As mentioned, he had a quick mutual practice against Cell but then went all out. He didn't take Yakon seriously, but I don't think Yakon was strong enough for him to need to do so. He took Majin Vegeta seriously, intending to end the fight as quickly as possible through transforming into a SSJ2. That Vegeta could also do so, and match his power, genuinely surprised Goku. That Goku had SSJ3 hidden away was almost certainly a retcon tbh. Mentioned Fat Buu and Kid Buu above.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 22, 2021 20:56:56 GMT
is that always the case though? I recall he went all out against buu in the manga and went ssj3 right away. vegeta even says don't hold back on my account, I don't need a turn and gokus like "I'm trying, but I can't get a clean opening to wipe him out all at once" I don't recall if goku held back on cell like in the anime, and the ssj3 vs vegeta thing was explained as such he didn't want to burn through his time on earth. Any lower kaioken levels are pretty much "I don't want to kill myself if I can avoid it, so maybe I'll hold off on x3...." Goku did have a "battle power" he used on strong guys who could take it and a laid back power for weaklings in db as a kid. this was before ki sensing though. Though my memories a bit foggy. If I'm off, elaborate because I do enjoy beign proven wrong on occasion. and with my health right now, I will be prone to mental mistakes. Goku actually blatantly didn't go all out on Buu. Both times. The first time he wanted to give the next gen the spotlight and when asked by Piccolo if he could've beaten Buu if he went all out Goku went "lol maybe" with that cheeky tone. Second time against Kid Buu he held back in order to give Vegeta a turn, before the weight of "oh shit I can't maintain this" hit like a sledgehammer. I'd have to check, but I think goku went all out as a ssj3 vs kid buu. vs fat buu he wasn't "holding back" so much as he just didn't want the responsibility of killing buu if he was dead. dbs goku would have held back and gone ssj1 and play with buu and go ssj2 and then go ssj3. he wasn't trying to give vegeta a shot. that was all filler
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Post by godjacob on Jun 22, 2021 21:05:08 GMT
is that always the case though? I recall he went all out against buu in the manga and went ssj3 right away. vegeta even says don't hold back on my account, I don't need a turn and gokus like "I'm trying, but I can't get a clean opening to wipe him out all at once" I don't recall if goku held back on cell like in the anime, and the ssj3 vs vegeta thing was explained as such he didn't want to burn through his time on earth. Any lower kaioken levels are pretty much "I don't want to kill myself if I can avoid it, so maybe I'll hold off on x3...." Goku did have a "battle power" he used on strong guys who could take it and a laid back power for weaklings in db as a kid. this was before ki sensing though. Though my memories a bit foggy. If I'm off, elaborate because I do enjoy beign proven wrong on occasion. and with my health right now, I will be prone to mental mistakes. He went all out against Kid Buu. Him holding out so Vegeta could have a turn was just anime filler iirc, Goku straight out said he wasn't trying to give Vegeta a turn in the manga. Goku and Cell both had a brief practice sesh before powering up. Goku did purposely not kill Fat Buu, because he wanted others to do so (makes him look like a selfish bastard considering his role in Buu's resurrection, as an aside). But he also didn't try fight Buu as a SSJ or SSJ2. Going off of what I recall from Goku's fights in the 'Z' part... He went all out against Raditz pretty quickly, through taking off his weights. He took Nappa seriously, and like you said the Kaioken isn't something to be used too lightly. He used it against Nappa when his power was insufficient to protect Gohan. He took Vegeta very seriously. He was able to stomp Recoome and Burter without really trying. Also was comfortable letting them go since they weren't a threat. I don't really remember how he handled the rest of the Namek Arc. He seemed to take #19 very seriously. He didn't try fight him in base. Or use Kaioken. As mentioned, he had a quick mutual practice against Cell but then went all out. He didn't take Yakon seriously, but I don't think Yakon was strong enough for him to need to do so. He took Majin Vegeta seriously, intending to end the fight as quickly as possible through transforming into a SSJ2. That Vegeta could also do so, and match his power, genuinely surprised Goku. That Goku had SSJ3 hidden away was almost certainly a retcon tbh. Mentioned Fat Buu and Kid Buu above. I can fill in those blanks. Goku and Ginyu fought for a bit without using Kaio-Ken, then Goku flexed it which scared Ginyu leading to the Body Swap. Frieza and Goku seemed to have a casual exchange (To the point of playing games like Frieza not using his tail) before he eventually used Kaio-Ken. Also Cell taken seriously I take issue with, mostly cause once Goku sensed (Or in the manga...just assumed Gohan had the power to reach based off his anger boosts) Gohan's power he decided to be critically casual about the whole thing. Not going in the room for another year, chilling with Gohan, having uh "personal time" with Chi-Chi. Before he and Cell began their fight in as you said almost like a practice spar before Goku pushed it. Hell, he gave Cell a Senzu because he was so sure Gohan would win and wanted to make things "fair". I'd argue out of any arc Cell is the one Goku has taken the least seriously in the franchise. Let us not forget when Bulma suggested they try to find and do something about Dr. Gero before he makes the androids it was Goku who shot it down because he like others (Vegeta etc.) he wanted to fight them.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 22, 2021 21:45:28 GMT
He went all out against Kid Buu. Him holding out so Vegeta could have a turn was just anime filler iirc, Goku straight out said he wasn't trying to give Vegeta a turn in the manga. Goku and Cell both had a brief practice sesh before powering up. Goku did purposely not kill Fat Buu, because he wanted others to do so (makes him look like a selfish bastard considering his role in Buu's resurrection, as an aside). But he also didn't try fight Buu as a SSJ or SSJ2. Going off of what I recall from Goku's fights in the 'Z' part... He went all out against Raditz pretty quickly, through taking off his weights. He took Nappa seriously, and like you said the Kaioken isn't something to be used too lightly. He used it against Nappa when his power was insufficient to protect Gohan. He took Vegeta very seriously. He was able to stomp Recoome and Burter without really trying. Also was comfortable letting them go since they weren't a threat. I don't really remember how he handled the rest of the Namek Arc. He seemed to take #19 very seriously. He didn't try fight him in base. Or use Kaioken. As mentioned, he had a quick mutual practice against Cell but then went all out. He didn't take Yakon seriously, but I don't think Yakon was strong enough for him to need to do so. He took Majin Vegeta seriously, intending to end the fight as quickly as possible through transforming into a SSJ2. That Vegeta could also do so, and match his power, genuinely surprised Goku. That Goku had SSJ3 hidden away was almost certainly a retcon tbh. Mentioned Fat Buu and Kid Buu above. I can fill in those blanks. Goku and Ginyu fought for a bit without using Kaio-Ken, then Goku flexed it which scared Ginyu leading to the Body Swap. Frieza and Goku seemed to have a casual exchange (To the point of playing games like Frieza not using his tail) before he eventually used Kaio-Ken. Also Cell taken seriously I take issue with, mostly cause once Goku sensed (Or in the manga...just assumed Gohan had the power to reach based off his anger boosts) Gohan's power he decided to be critically casual about the whole thing. Not going in the room for another year, chilling with Gohan, having uh "personal time" with Chi-Chi. Before he and Cell began their fight in as you said almost like a practice spar before Goku pushed it. Hell, he gave Cell a Senzu because he was so sure Gohan would win and wanted to make things "fair". I'd argue out of any arc Cell is the one Goku has taken the least seriously in the franchise. Let us not forget when Bulma suggested they try to find and do something about Dr. Gero before he makes the androids it was Goku who shot it down because he like others (Vegeta etc.) he wanted to fight them. so he did spar a bit with cell. this is true. but there was a method to goku fighting in the way he did. he had no intention of winning at all, and fought so gohan could see cells fighting style. I think that was the last time goku ever really "held back" without there being some reason he couldn't or wouldn't go all out like in the buu saga. I honestly think the senzu was just to mock cell. he had a senzu, ate it and was still pulverized by ssj2 gohan. it was more like "pfft. you're gonna need this, wuss" like there are sparks of this attitude in dbz, but dbs goes way over board. if this was dbs goku fighting cell, he'd start off in base, use kaioken, eat senzus and go ssj. then power up as a ssj to max power. its a flanderized part of goku that dbs takes overboard, where as dbz goku might not even be fighting granlah, he'd be training the next generation to be strong enough to take care of themselves, and gotenks would be losing to granolah. goku letting gero make the droids is out of character, and later when everyone is fighting 3 years later, when gero reveals more droids, they want to stop them from being activated, which defeats the purpose of letting him go for 3 years as is. Well? did you want to test your might against the droids or not? only vegeta is acting the same as before, and they think he's crazy for being consistent.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 22, 2021 23:01:02 GMT
I can fill in those blanks. Goku and Ginyu fought for a bit without using Kaio-Ken, then Goku flexed it which scared Ginyu leading to the Body Swap. Frieza and Goku seemed to have a casual exchange (To the point of playing games like Frieza not using his tail) before he eventually used Kaio-Ken. Also Cell taken seriously I take issue with, mostly cause once Goku sensed (Or in the manga...just assumed Gohan had the power to reach based off his anger boosts) Gohan's power he decided to be critically casual about the whole thing. Not going in the room for another year, chilling with Gohan, having uh "personal time" with Chi-Chi. Before he and Cell began their fight in as you said almost like a practice spar before Goku pushed it. Hell, he gave Cell a Senzu because he was so sure Gohan would win and wanted to make things "fair". I'd argue out of any arc Cell is the one Goku has taken the least seriously in the franchise. Let us not forget when Bulma suggested they try to find and do something about Dr. Gero before he makes the androids it was Goku who shot it down because he like others (Vegeta etc.) he wanted to fight them. so he did spar a bit with cell. this is true. but there was a method to goku fighting in the way he did. he had no intention of winning at all, and fought so gohan could see cells fighting style. I think that was the last time goku ever really "held back" without there being some reason he couldn't or wouldn't go all out like in the buu saga. I honestly think the senzu was just to mock cell. he had a senzu, ate it and was still pulverized by ssj2 gohan. it was more like "pfft. you're gonna need this, wuss" like there are sparks of this attitude in dbz, but dbs goes way over board. if this was dbs goku fighting cell, he'd start off in base, use kaioken, eat senzus and go ssj. then power up as a ssj to max power. its a flanderized part of goku that dbs takes overboard, where as dbz goku might not even be fighting granlah, he'd be training the next generation to be strong enough to take care of themselves, and gotenks would be losing to granolah. goku letting gero make the droids is out of character, and later when everyone is fighting 3 years later, when gero reveals more droids, they want to stop them from being activated, which defeats the purpose of letting him go for 3 years as is. Well? did you want to test your might against the droids or not? only vegeta is acting the same as before, and they think he's crazy for being consistent. I agree DBS Goku does make this aspect flanderized (Though I find it funny that going Blue, even mixing UI with it, is not "going easy") of the character but I just feel people acting like Goku was always down to business in DB/DBZ is just ignoring it the other way. Goku may have believed Gohan would beat Cell, but that does not mean Goku didn't evolve to trying to win himself. He just figured he could not, but still after feeling out Cell with the spar-like beginning he did give it what he had including that Instant Kamehameha. So he tried to win, but didn't go all out to begin with. You can think that, more power to you, but it is not what Goku said or what the story directly implied. Doesn't change Goku being very casual about his son's fight. Goku would be fighting Granolah, he didn't exactly go "lol I retire" even when teaching the next gen he'd eagerly be in the fight himself much as shown when he takes Uub to train at the End of Z. Goku more often than not doesn't go all out to begin with, usually wanting to feel out his foe and use matching strength rather than escalate it on his end of it. There are two sides to Goku, the protector of the people and general hero and the guy who enjoys a good fight for its own sake. To pretned Z Goku was nothing but that is being dishonest and calling this entirely OOC is a touch much.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 22, 2021 23:09:20 GMT
so he did spar a bit with cell. this is true. but there was a method to goku fighting in the way he did. he had no intention of winning at all, and fought so gohan could see cells fighting style. I think that was the last time goku ever really "held back" without there being some reason he couldn't or wouldn't go all out like in the buu saga. I honestly think the senzu was just to mock cell. he had a senzu, ate it and was still pulverized by ssj2 gohan. it was more like "pfft. you're gonna need this, wuss" like there are sparks of this attitude in dbz, but dbs goes way over board. if this was dbs goku fighting cell, he'd start off in base, use kaioken, eat senzus and go ssj. then power up as a ssj to max power. its a flanderized part of goku that dbs takes overboard, where as dbz goku might not even be fighting granlah, he'd be training the next generation to be strong enough to take care of themselves, and gotenks would be losing to granolah. goku letting gero make the droids is out of character, and later when everyone is fighting 3 years later, when gero reveals more droids, they want to stop them from being activated, which defeats the purpose of letting him go for 3 years as is. Well? did you want to test your might against the droids or not? only vegeta is acting the same as before, and they think he's crazy for being consistent. I agree DBS Goku does make this aspect flanderized (Though I find it funny that going Blue, even mixing UI with it, is not "going easy") of the character but I just feel people acting like Goku was always down to business in DB/DBZ is just ignoring it the other way. Goku may have believed Gohan would beat Cell, but that does not mean Goku didn't evolve to trying to win himself. He just figured he could not, but still after feeling out Cell with the spar-like beginning he did give it what he had including that Instant Kamehameha. So he tried to win, but didn't go all out to begin with. You can think that, more power to you, but it is not what Goku said or what the story directly implied. Doesn't change Goku being very casual about his son's fight. Goku would be fighting Granolah, he didn't exactly go "lol I retire" even when teaching the next gen he'd eagerly be in the fight himself much as shown when he takes Uub to train at the End of Z. Goku more often than not doesn't go all out to begin with, usually wanting to feel out his foe and use matching strength rather than escalate it on his end of it. There are two sides to Goku, the protector of the people and general hero and the guy who enjoys a good fight for its own sake. To pretned Z Goku was nothing but that is being dishonest and calling this entirely OOC is a touch much. I mistyped when I said goku was OOC. the whole z team was ooc. they were like "yeah lets train to fight the droids." then it was "no. we gotta stop the droids from beign released" well, which is it guys? and why are you calling vegeta crazy for following the plan you all agreed to 3 years prior?
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Post by godjacob on Jun 22, 2021 23:27:04 GMT
I agree DBS Goku does make this aspect flanderized (Though I find it funny that going Blue, even mixing UI with it, is not "going easy") of the character but I just feel people acting like Goku was always down to business in DB/DBZ is just ignoring it the other way. Goku may have believed Gohan would beat Cell, but that does not mean Goku didn't evolve to trying to win himself. He just figured he could not, but still after feeling out Cell with the spar-like beginning he did give it what he had including that Instant Kamehameha. So he tried to win, but didn't go all out to begin with. You can think that, more power to you, but it is not what Goku said or what the story directly implied. Doesn't change Goku being very casual about his son's fight. Goku would be fighting Granolah, he didn't exactly go "lol I retire" even when teaching the next gen he'd eagerly be in the fight himself much as shown when he takes Uub to train at the End of Z. Goku more often than not doesn't go all out to begin with, usually wanting to feel out his foe and use matching strength rather than escalate it on his end of it. There are two sides to Goku, the protector of the people and general hero and the guy who enjoys a good fight for its own sake. To pretned Z Goku was nothing but that is being dishonest and calling this entirely OOC is a touch much. I mistyped when I said goku was OOC. the whole z team was ooc. they were like "yeah lets train to fight the droids." then it was "no. we gotta stop the droids from beign released" well, which is it guys? and why are you calling vegeta crazy for following the plan you all agreed to 3 years prior? Oh I was talking DBS Goku in this chapter being OOC not the Android decision lol my mistake
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 22, 2021 23:37:56 GMT
I mistyped when I said goku was OOC. the whole z team was ooc. they were like "yeah lets train to fight the droids." then it was "no. we gotta stop the droids from beign released" well, which is it guys? and why are you calling vegeta crazy for following the plan you all agreed to 3 years prior? Oh I was talking DBS Goku in this chapter being OOC not the Android decision lol my mistake yeah goku acted out of character in the cell saga, quite a bit. You recall when he fought radditz and picolo asked him if he was excited to fight a strong guy like radditz? goku was not, and he said he was terrified. And while I can totally see goku evolving as a character to get excited in the heat of battle, I don't see him being like "oh. 3 years from now we will encounter 2 strong robots. thats worth sacrificing the world" he should at least say "eh, we should probably stop that or at least use the db's to fight them in trunks future by building a big time machine we can all use." That way he gets a good fight, saves the present, and can get the back tingling excitement he gets from battle.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 22, 2021 23:44:07 GMT
Oh I was talking DBS Goku in this chapter being OOC not the Android decision lol my mistake yeah goku acted out of character in the cell saga, quite a bit. You recall when he fought radditz and picolo asked him if he was excited to fight a strong guy like radditz? goku was not, and he said he was terrified. And while I can totally see goku evolving as a character to get excited in the heat of battle, I don't see him being like "oh. 3 years from now we will encounter 2 strong robots. thats worth sacrificing the world" he should at least say "eh, we should probably stop that or at least use the db's to fight them in trunks future by building a big time machine we can all use." That way he gets a good fight, saves the present, and can get the back tingling excitement he gets from battle. Vegeta: When I return, I am going to kill everyone of you. And I am gonna enjoy it. Goku: Let him go...I want to fight him...again... Not to complain but Goku seems totally willing to risk the world in Z for the promise of a good fight. It's kinda been a thing with him, for better or worse. I think the Android Arc is the most egregious case of this (Especially when he complains about Dr. Gero killing that city senselessly when he literally is why this is even happening) but DBS didn't make this trait out of thin air or a minor example.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 22, 2021 23:49:42 GMT
yeah goku acted out of character in the cell saga, quite a bit. You recall when he fought radditz and picolo asked him if he was excited to fight a strong guy like radditz? goku was not, and he said he was terrified. And while I can totally see goku evolving as a character to get excited in the heat of battle, I don't see him being like "oh. 3 years from now we will encounter 2 strong robots. thats worth sacrificing the world" he should at least say "eh, we should probably stop that or at least use the db's to fight them in trunks future by building a big time machine we can all use." That way he gets a good fight, saves the present, and can get the back tingling excitement he gets from battle. Vegeta: When I return, I am going to kill everyone of you. And I am gonna enjoy it. Goku: Let him go...I want to fight him...again... Not to complain but Goku seems totally willing to risk the world in Z for the promise of a good fight. It's kinda been a thing with him, for better or worse. I think the Android Arc is the most egregious case of this (Especially when he complains about Dr. Gero killing that city senselessly when he literally is why this is even happening) but DBS didn't make this trait out of thin air or a minor example. I get that, but vegeta was kina neutered then. he lost his tail, and goku still had the kaioken. he was due for a zenkai himself, and those multipliers were only going to get bigger. so while you do make a good point with vegeta, he wasn't as big a threat as he was before. and what I'm saying on the droids was that they could kill gero in the present, and get the future ones. so he gets his cake and eats it too, and then goes to another time line for more cake. thus creating a paradox.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 22, 2021 23:55:07 GMT
Vegeta: When I return, I am going to kill everyone of you. And I am gonna enjoy it. Goku: Let him go...I want to fight him...again... Not to complain but Goku seems totally willing to risk the world in Z for the promise of a good fight. It's kinda been a thing with him, for better or worse. I think the Android Arc is the most egregious case of this (Especially when he complains about Dr. Gero killing that city senselessly when he literally is why this is even happening) but DBS didn't make this trait out of thin air or a minor example. I get that, but vegeta was kina neutered then. he lost his tail, and goku still had the kaioken. he was due for a zenkai himself, and those multipliers were only going to get bigger. so while you do make a good point with vegeta, he wasn't as big a threat as he was before. and what I'm saying on the droids was that they could kill gero in the present, and get the future ones. so he gets his cake and eats it too, and then goes to another time line for more cake. thus creating a paradox. That's good but the thing is nobody knew that. Zenkais were not a thing till Namek retroactively made them one, and as far as anyone (Including Vegeta) was concerned his tail would grow back. Gohan's had, so had Goku's they had no reason to believe it would not. Vegeta was still a threat, who had actively promised to kill them all. That's about as risky as "Androids will kill us all in the future" Again I don't disagree that the Cell Arc Goku was careless (I mentioned he was the most careless during it lol)
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 23, 2021 0:07:40 GMT
I get that, but vegeta was kina neutered then. he lost his tail, and goku still had the kaioken. he was due for a zenkai himself, and those multipliers were only going to get bigger. so while you do make a good point with vegeta, he wasn't as big a threat as he was before. and what I'm saying on the droids was that they could kill gero in the present, and get the future ones. so he gets his cake and eats it too, and then goes to another time line for more cake. thus creating a paradox. That's good but the thing is nobody knew that. Zenkais were not a thing till Namek retroactively made them one, and as far as anyone (Including Vegeta) was concerned his tail would grow back. Gohan's had, so had Goku's they had no reason to believe it would not. Vegeta was still a threat, who had actively promised to kill them all. That's about as risky as "Androids will kill us all in the future" Again I don't disagree that the Cell Arc Goku was careless (I mentioned he was the most careless during it lol) I'm talking in hind sight, not necessarily in what the author was suggesting. And like I said, goku was evolving, but even so, he should have just done what needed done, and fight the droids in the future. he did have this logic in dbs, fighting zamasu x2 in the future. That is mostly what I'm suggesting goku do in dbz, as a means to get his exciting fight and preserve the lives of people around him. he sure was pissed at gero for killing most of the people on the island, and made efforts to stop him, but you don't get brownie points for starting a fire and then failing to put it out. and like I said before, the z team went out of their way to prevent 17 and 18's release. yeah, thats just bad writing, and if you went out of your way to establish that it was done to "test their limits" then it seems like a plot hole to make them actively work against their plan they set out to do in just 3 years prior. its odd that I'm praising dbs goku for leaving the death and destruction out of his time line and not dbz goku, but I will give dbs props when it does deserve it. And for all its stupidity, I still enjoyed the cell arc.
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Post by Blaze on Jun 23, 2021 1:50:09 GMT
Goku's battle lust really got turned up through the latter part of the Saiyan Arc, with his fight against Vegeta. Also, letting Vegeta live was very selfish. But Goku's acknowledgement that it was selfish goes a long way to... humanising the decision. He knows it's a bad idea. He still wants to do it because Vegeta was genuinely incredible to him. That a saiyan could match and surpass him, despite all the training he did with King Kai. That view is something I love about Goku tbh. You see it again with the fight against Freeza, whose death saddened Goku. It also seemed to make him more pragmatic. (DBS did something that could've been interesting with Goku and Moro there, as an aside. But the senzu stuff spoils it imo.) Also Cell taken seriously I take issue with, mostly cause once Goku sensed (Or in the manga...just assumed Gohan had the power to reach based off his anger boosts) Gohan's power he decided to be critically casual about the whole thing. Not going in the room for another year, chilling with Gohan, having uh "personal time" with Chi-Chi. Before he and Cell began their fight in as you said almost like a practice spar before Goku pushed it. Goku going into the room for another year wouldn't have achieved anything according to him. (And not important but Goten being conceived in those 10 days doesn't really work timeline-wise.) Goku was casual during the time before the Cell Games, but that was based on confidence in Gohan. By 'serious' I mean he didn't hold back against Cell for fun. There was no 'Goku fighting in base, transforming and then slowly revealing more of his power'. There was a quick mutual practice and that was it. A pretty safe thing to do as well, considering Cell's personality. Something you can't say for Granolah. Once Goku and Cell got going, Goku went all out. To the point where he really should've won that fight, what with his IT Kamehameha.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 23, 2021 2:22:49 GMT
Goku's battle lust really got turned up through the latter part of the Saiyan Arc, with his fight against Vegeta. Also, letting Vegeta live was very selfish. But Goku's acknowledgement that it was selfish goes a long way to... humanising the decision. He knows it's a bad idea. He still wants to do it because Vegeta was genuinely incredible to him. That a saiyan could match and surpass him, despite all the training he did with King Kai. That view is something I love about Goku tbh. You see it again with the fight against Freeza, whose death saddened Goku. It also seemed to make him more pragmatic. (DBS did something that could've been interesting with Goku and Moro there, as an aside. But the senzu stuff spoils it imo.) Which has been a consistent trait since the latter Saiyan Saga, my general point int his extended discussion is Goku's attitude of not going max out right out of the gate or taking more pragmatic solutions to problems is more consistent than it is not even if slight aspects pushed a bit more in DBS. Goku? Pragmatic? Goku allowed Frieza to power up to 100% in spite of King Kai's objections for the sole purpose of wanting to beat Frieza at his best for added humiliation. Goku has never been a pragmatic figure in about any era of DB. And I've already talked of Goku's less than pragmatic attitude in the Cell Arc after the Frieza's fight. Goku going into the room for another year wouldn't have achieved anything according to him. (And not important but Goten being conceived in those 10 days doesn't really work timeline-wise.) Goku was casual during the time before the Cell Games, but that was based on confidence in Gohan. By 'serious' I mean he didn't hold back against Cell for fun. There was no 'Goku fighting in base, transforming and then slowly revealing more of his power'. There was a quick mutual practice and that was it. A pretty safe thing to do as well, considering Cell's personality. Something you can't say for Granolah. Once Goku and Cell got going, Goku went all out. To the point where he really should've won that fight, what with his IT Kamehameha. E Retroactively we know this is a bunch of rubbish but ignoring hindsight I may entertain the idea Goku thought it would be a waste of time, but one day of extra training on a 10 day break would still allow them to fine tune their skills and not come off as Goku not caring about the Cell Games much. Or the fate of the world. It's hard to say Goku was "serious" when he tossed Cell a senzu bean so sure Gohan would win on a plan Gohan is clueless about. I'll take Goku powering up from base to his higher forms in a feeling out bit than that personally. What you can say for Granolah is that least he didn't send his son out there to fight him and told him to go easy on him.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 24, 2021 2:33:50 GMT
Goku's battle lust really got turned up through the latter part of the Saiyan Arc, with his fight against Vegeta. Also, letting Vegeta live was very selfish. But Goku's acknowledgement that it was selfish goes a long way to... humanising the decision. He knows it's a bad idea. He still wants to do it because Vegeta was genuinely incredible to him. That a saiyan could match and surpass him, despite all the training he did with King Kai. That view is something I love about Goku tbh. You see it again with the fight against Freeza, whose death saddened Goku. It also seemed to make him more pragmatic. (DBS did something that could've been interesting with Goku and Moro there, as an aside. But the senzu stuff spoils it imo.) Which has been a consistent trait since the latter Saiyan Saga, my general point int his extended discussion is Goku's attitude of not going max out right out of the gate or taking more pragmatic solutions to problems is more consistent than it is not even if slight aspects pushed a bit more in DBS. Goku? Pragmatic? Goku allowed Frieza to power up to 100% in spite of King Kai's objections for the sole purpose of wanting to beat Frieza at his best for added humiliation. Goku has never been a pragmatic figure in about any era of DB. And I've already talked of Goku's less than pragmatic attitude in the Cell Arc after the Frieza's fight. Goku going into the room for another year wouldn't have achieved anything according to him. (And not important but Goten being conceived in those 10 days doesn't really work timeline-wise.) Goku was casual during the time before the Cell Games, but that was based on confidence in Gohan. By 'serious' I mean he didn't hold back against Cell for fun. There was no 'Goku fighting in base, transforming and then slowly revealing more of his power'. There was a quick mutual practice and that was it. A pretty safe thing to do as well, considering Cell's personality. Something you can't say for Granolah. Once Goku and Cell got going, Goku went all out. To the point where he really should've won that fight, what with his IT Kamehameha. E Retroactively we know this is a bunch of rubbish but ignoring hindsight I may entertain the idea Goku thought it would be a waste of time, but one day of extra training on a 10 day break would still allow them to fine tune their skills and not come off as Goku not caring about the Cell Games much. Or the fate of the world. It's hard to say Goku was "serious" when he tossed Cell a senzu bean so sure Gohan would win on a plan Gohan is clueless about. I'll take Goku powering up from base to his higher forms in a feeling out bit than that personally. What you can say for Granolah is that least he didn't send his son out there to fight him and told him to go easy on him. wait, did goku really tell gohan to go easy on him? my brain forgets things in my old age and health issues. and well, goku letting freeza power up was when his ssj blood was boiling. he wasn't going to let him at first, and then he did it to really hammer home how weak freeza was. Then he figured the fight wasn't worth it, so he left. he passed on finishing the fight so he could live. it only went further because freeza wanted to finish things. goku didn't always fight for his own enjoyment. not in dbz. in the buu saga he left buu to the kids because they should protect the universe, not a dead man from beyond. I think he enjoyed complimenting buu on his talents, and speculated whether buu would stop killing, and it was not the case. To say goku did not do selfish thing sis wrong, but to suggest he only did selfish things and what not is also false. He had what we could call a "mixed bag" approach. He did some silly things, but when it was time to protect people he would do the right thing. He did not keep eating senzus to fight cell for more battles, he was even given the offer to do so. dbs takes those small seldom moments and cranks them up, and some speculate that AT did this to off set toeis more serious goku in the movies.
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Post by Azoth on Jul 20, 2021 22:33:46 GMT
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