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Post by iron leaf on Apr 3, 2018 17:35:10 GMT
What makes me sad about this part. People gonna say from now on this was a brilliant callback. I already heard people calling this ending good. DBS really set the bar very, very low. How would you have done it instead? Honestly I found it quite compelling considering the serie it was. All the issues this ending could have are a staple of DBS instead, and not of the ending properly. They wrote themselves into a corner but again, this was not an issue of the ending itself. It's a general DBS problem. The ending sorta managed to avoid that corner and end it appropriately. I think any major variation would just cause major souring like it happened with the Zamasu arc. I am not pushover when it comes to crapping on DBS but I give it credit where it's due. Why do I dislike this ending? The ending of DBZ isn't great either, right? Yes, the actual ending of DBZ isn't great. Nonetheless, if we look at the conclusion of the final fight in DBZ and then the ending of DBZ, we see Kid Boo gets defeated in episode 286 and the final ending is episode 291. 5 whole episodes to wrap everything up, all loose ends, etc. Episode 287: At first, Boo is defeated and our heroes return to earth, then half an episode is dedicated to Boo, an slice of life episode. This was a callback to Dragonball episode 43. When Goku was trying to find Bulma in the city, so she could repair the Dragon radar and Goku had little adventures in the episode.
Episode 288: The grillparty episode. My most favorite last episode of an arc in whole Dragonball. We see all (important) DBZ characters together (sorry Launch, Toriyama doesn't likes you) at Bulma's place having a real party (sadly Toei's only way of wrapping up an arc in DBS). And everyone kinda get some dialogues, even Yamcha. The other half of the episode is dedicated to Goku, the actual protagonist of the show. He wants to protect the dragon's egg, so it can hatch safely but throughout the episode there are dangers and Goku has to protect egg, in the meantime he reminisces about the time with his grandpa Gohan. Although it's the last episode, it's a real episode with real dialogues and a little bit of plot and not a montage. Manga-Canonist: "Oh those 2 episodes aren't in the manga, so it is kinda not really cano...." Me: "sucks to be you, because I love those 2 episodes and the part with Buu hanging around Satan City is probably my favorit slice of life (half) episode in the entire franchise. Love it. And they really are setting for an end with the grill party episode. And #18 pushed Gohan onto the dancefield, so he can dance with Videl. That was cute." The last remaining 3 episodes are about Uub. I think Goku's and Pan's relationship is the pinnacle of those episodes. I agree with many people the actual ending scene with Goku leaving his family to train Uub (although he can use IT, so he doesn't actually needs to abandon his family) was really weird after watching it again. Salagir, thank you so much that you made it obvious in DBM that Goku was just training Uub but never really abandoned his family and later even training Pan. But in the whole Scheme to end DBZ the last 5 episodes altogether are good, imo. So, you guessed what is really grinding gear with DBS ending, right? The conclusion of the final fight in DBS and then the ending of DBS is in the same episode. I don't like it. How can you possibly wrap it all up in less than 10 minutes? You can't. I don't understand how shows don't dedicate at least 1 whole episode for an ending. Was Toei afraid that in a possible last episode people wouldn't like it because there could be possibly no fighting? Naw, we all know Toei had some internal problems or something similar, why they had to cut DBS much sooner than predicted, right? Oh, those poor, poor people at Toei, they haven't had enough time to make an actual last episode to appreciate the whole series and try to wrap all loose ends in DBS. It's not like they could take some of those 54 episodes and dedicate some of them for the end, but naw, it was very important that we have 35 episodes exclusively with fighting and just half an episode for the ending. Otherwise people would have complained that there wouldn't been enough fighting in this arc. Furthermore, what was the point of anything in this arc? Is erasure different than death? Does it matter, because DBS doesn't care to explain the difference, but was kinda eager to remind us everytime that those participants weren't dead but erased. Yeah, it was really satisfactorily to have an answer to that. Does it had any kind of effect or character development to have Gohan as the teamleader? Does it matter, because it doesn't seem like anybody was giving a damn that Gohan was teamleader, so why was it important to tell us this? (It's especially painful to watch that even Goku wasn't giving a crap what his son, the team leader was suggesting or rather ignoring him). Does anyone get any character development in this arc at all? I mean some major impact on the character? Oh, the tournament/the arc is all about universe erasure and survival. Ooops, wait no, just kidding. nobody is getting erased, because if you hadn't wished to restore the other universes in the first place, you all would have died, uhm erased, uhm wait, what was it again, ooh yeah, it doesn't matter. This whole 35 episode of exclusively fighting were pointless at this point. Fighting was always meaningful, or at least should be meaningful at the final battle against the main antagonist. Naw, this isn't necessary. Who in his right mind need charater driven plots that conclude with character development? What we really need are fighting, and nothing more. The final confrontation against Jiren was nothing special. There was nothing to overcome the antagonist other than being more powerful. No real clash of ideologies or anything else. (oh, god. even Zamasu had more interesting motivations to fight our heroes than anything in the T.o.P., again the Zamasu arc having something not being the worst arc ever) Nothing really matters. Did we get any conclusion to Obuni and Gohan and their love to fight for their families survival? Naw not important, did we get any conclusion to Ribrianne and #18 and their perspective of love, etc? Naw, not important. Why having any conclusion to anything because everything will be explained in the next series! Isn't it great? Now, Toei doesn't have to make an actual last episode or try to wrap anything up because they can do it with the next series. Wait, this is familiar, I think my teacher called this procrastination. Naw, doesn't matter. (Oh, god. At this point even the Zamasu arc had more impact on the whole story than this here. The Zamasu arc for kamis sake! Toei managed that the ending of the Zamasu arc had more meaning than the T.o.P. arc, ohhhhhhh myyyy goooood!) Seriously, this whole T.o.P. arc is now nothing more than the introduction to Toppo, Jiren, Caulifla and Kale. So, now that they had a 53 episode long introduction Toei can now make the actual adventure/arcs with those characters. Isn't it great? Rewatching the arc we now really know indepth the character motivation of all the new characters. Now that everything is wrapped up, the fight between Toppo, Jiren, Caulifla, Kale have now in the retrospective so much emotional impact. Wait a minute, I forgot, people & Toei apparently don't care for those unimportant details like motivation and character development. Good thing we have 35 episode just filled with fighting and nothing more. Whis asspulled-magic his way to revive Freeza like promised and now the emperor is alive again, wait? Did we have actual a change? So plotpoint x mentioned earlier in the arc had actually some impact and progressed so there can be character and story development in the future? OMG, guys, call the news, the T.o.P. arc is actually in one aspect not completely pointless. Here my gripes about the actual end-credits. The story concluded so fast, that they somehow wanted to wrap up all loose ends for the next series or for the Uub-mini-arc or whatever in a special way. A way I condemn very much. Jamming things into the last minutes of DBS for the next series WITH A MONTAGE. Looks like Toei learned from the master George Lucas jamming all loose ends for the next installment within the last minutes. Yeah, looks like this kind of ending are going to come more frequently now, yeah . If there was only a way to put the information not into montage at the very last minutes of a story. Wait a minute? What if we put those interesting/important imformations in the story instead making a montage after the actual story/movie is over? And now the famous fighting stance from the Saiyan arc from DBZ as a callback. You know what information my eyes actually transferred to my brain watching the very last scene? Toei is telling us that the most important message from DBS is the following. It's all about the rivalry between Goku and Vegeta. That was the core motivation for DBS to progress at all. Was there any story behind this callback or was this just squeezed last minute so everybody can say, rEmEmBeR dRaGoNbAlL? Edit: Sry, Conqueror Geng for not actually replying/answering to your question how I would do it. I was once again trapped in my hatred and was circling in a doom loop of sarcasm because it was the only way to bear it to think about the mess DBS was. I'm really happy that I can at least get a rest for one year before it is starting all over again.
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Post by Axalon on Apr 3, 2018 21:26:03 GMT
Ahhhh, DBS is the racehorse that just keeps on giving... I agree with many people the actual ending scene with Goku leaving his family to train Uub (although he can use IT, so he doesn't actually needs to abandon his family) was really weird after watching it again. Salagir, thank you so much that you made it obvious in DBM that Goku was just training Uub but never really abandoned his family and later even training Pan. But in the whole Scheme to end DBZ the last 5 episodes altogether are good, imo. Not really all that strange, well, not strange for Goku at any rate. This man had a direct line to anyone on Earth thanks to King Kai also being dead with him in the Other World, and aside from telling his family and friends not to resurrect him didn't speak a word to them for 7 whole years until Gohan said the "T" word (tournament) and from across time, space and death itself suddenly Goku is picking up the King Kai phone and saying he'll join. The man clearly has his priorities in times of peace, and training supersedes family for him. It is kind of interesting since Toyotaro has said that DBS would directly tie into EoZ, which the anime clearly does not do. So either the manga will end differently than the anime or those plans to have it tie up into EoZ got changed when Toriyama suddenly decided he wanted to write about Yamoshi and stuff, possibly delaying Super hitting EoZ if not changing it altogether. We'll have to wait and see. That sure would've been nice. Especially if it would've taken away 90% of Ribrianne's screen time. I always thought it seemed simple enough. When you die, your soul goes to the afterlife. When you're erased, you just cease existing entirely. HAHAHA, nope! Gohan being team leader accomplished nothing. Only half the team (mostly the weak half) respected his status as leader, and Frieza ended up respecting Gohan more as a team leader than Goku himself! Even the narrator forgot Gohan was the team leader at times and said Goku was! Yup. But let's be real, we all knew it was going to be this way. I and others have been calling this for like a year now when the ToP was announced. Power is the end-all, be-all in DB. Nothing about Ribrianne is important, so I'll give you that one. Implying a new series won't be about Goku and will instead be about these guys? PFFFT. These guys will be forgotten and old news once the movie comes out. If it doesn't have something related to Goku, it's not going to be mentioned. Look at how Hit went from Goku's new rival from a different universe to getting punched out of the ToP at the halfway mark by Goku's NEW new rival from a different universe. At best we'll see Jiren come back and get his ass kicked by some new guy. Yup. It's all about Goku and then sometimes Vegeta, but definitely Goku. #17 may have won the tournament by virtue of hanging on, but Goku learning and mastering Ultra Instinct in 3 minutes is what led to that.
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Post by iron leaf on Apr 3, 2018 23:17:32 GMT
I was really pushing it with the sarcasm in my comment. But DBS is really driving me crazy the moment I think more than 2 minutes about it. I just can't handle the endless missed opportunities in DBS. For example, Jiren and U11 altogether being heroes, more heroic than our team, was really something interesting. Aaaaand they scrapped it. Sigh.
I hate this arc very much. There are "no" real consequences. (Probably the worst thing that can happen to an author writing a story) (Vegeta having now a bluer SSB &) Freeza resurrected are literally the only consequences I would call significant. In an arc with 53 episodes, just unbelievable. Goku has no access to his mastered Ultra Instinct form doesn't make sense, and I or someone at Toei definitely need a dictionary, because Goku not being able to use his "mastered" Ultra Instinct form confused the hell out of me. Every other universe is back and the only difference is just that all of them "know" Goku now. And what the hell did they do with Whis? Deus-Exed some new asspull abilities? He can rip a baby out of the womb of a woman, he has some kind of teleportation ability, he can rewind time, and now he can resurrect dead people. Wait, that makes the Hit kills Goku filler episode completely pointless in the retrospective. They killed the possibility of tension even more now because whenever an angel is involved in future stories they can just asspull-resurrect anybody and makes the Dragonballs even more obsolet than they already were in DBS. And last but not least, they pushed the fu**ing reset button on this arc. That's why I said "DBS really set the bar very, very low." in my comment on the previous page. And yes, the famous fighting stance looked good, I admit it, but it had no meaning at all because it was just there for the fans, nothing else.
Now for real people. Who thinks this animation company is able to pull off an actual good follow up series maybe in one or two years? With this track record of 131 episodes? And I'm not talking about wishfulness thinking, because we had that in almost every episode of DBS, where fans had sometimes so many interesting ideas how to do the actual series justice.
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Post by Axalon on Apr 4, 2018 0:46:47 GMT
I hate this arc very much. There are "no" real consequences. (Probably the worst thing that can happen to an author writing a story) ...Welcome to Dragon Ball? Not to sound facetious or anything, but typically the only consequences to come out of DB is that the heroes get stronger. When there are THREE magical wish granting dragons the concept of negative consequences kind of goes out the window. Goku himself is cavalier about death at times, often just shrugging and saying he'll just fix whatever went wrong with the DBs. When Kid Buu murdered Gohan and Goten he shrugged it off and started playing rock-paper-scissors with Vegeta to fight Buu because of Saiyan Pride. Hell, Goku's entire attitude about the universes being erased in the ToP was "But I get to fight new and strong opponents!" That's not even counting bringing back dead fighters for 24 hours, or having the Old Kai trading his life in again for someone, or Whis ALSO having the ability to resurrect people. Speaking of... Yup. Now they don't even have to wait a year! Just bribe Whis with a chocolate parfait or something! Whis so far has actually seemed the closest thing DB has had to a real "god" in terms of abilities, despite being an angel and not a god. Time control, resurrection, etc, are all more what I think of for "gods" than the typical DB example of a blue bug man with a shiny car. ...Welcome to Dragon Ball? Again? They do this in every arc. Depends on the quality of Toriyama's writing. ...so yeah.
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Post by Kirasha on Apr 4, 2018 1:17:23 GMT
I mean, everything in DBS had no real consequences because it takes place before the End of Z, so I don't know why people were expecting to see anything in this entire series to have any sort of consequences beyond Goku and Vegeta becoming more powerful than everyone else, again.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Apr 4, 2018 2:08:28 GMT
I mean, everything in DBS had no real consequences because it takes place before the End of Z, so I don't know why people were expecting to see anything in this entire series to have any sort of consequences beyond Goku and Vegeta becoming more powerful than everyone else, again. Yup, this is the problem I was addressing: most people having issues with the ending, are really having problems with DBS itself (and more notably its terrible pacing and dead ends). I still think this ending was the only proper way they could end a serie that was just an interquel, while still feeling somehow "impressive".
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Post by Kirasha on Apr 4, 2018 2:36:59 GMT
I mean, everything in DBS had no real consequences because it takes place before the End of Z, so I don't know why people were expecting to see anything in this entire series to have any sort of consequences beyond Goku and Vegeta becoming more powerful than everyone else, again. Yup, this is the problem I was addressing: most people having issues with the ending, are really having problems with DBS itself. I still think this ending was the only proper way they could end a serie that was just an interquel, while still feeling somehow "impressive". I fully agree, for what it was worth, this was really the best ending Super could've gotten with it's idiotic idea of shoving it all into a 20 minute episode. I mean, of course I would have rather seen an Episode 132, or that the final episode was an hour long special and we got a bit more of a proper ending. But for what we have gotten throughout the arc, and what we got for an ending? They could have done it so much worse, it could have completely fallen on it's face...but it did not. We got an ending that was, in my honest opinion, satisfactory and gave a feel good moment to it.
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Post by Xeno Black on Apr 4, 2018 2:56:23 GMT
The ending of Super was actually satisfying. I myself am not the best of fans when it comes to Super, but I must give credit where credit is due. And the reason why is because it had real tension for once. Honestly that is all I ever need from any dragon ball series. Tension with good action/choreography. I want to feel excitement on what is going to happen next. I want to speculate if person A is going to win or utterly die in a brutal fashion. I want to theorize if the final villain is not only going to achieve his final form, but surpass it with elements already present from the get go. Plot, character growth, and world building come second long as I get this one single aspect from a shonen fighting series.
And as for consequences, 'pff never going to happen. Long as either Dragon Balls or Angels exist, always expect for things to get reset back to the way they were. Now having said that, it is kinda lame that it goes like this, but then again it been like this since the King Piccolo saga. Nothing new honestly. But it does hamper the tension aspect significantly, which is my most personal measuring bar to decide if a series is either kickass or underwhelming. From a subconscious level this might explain why I always love dragon ball stories where their were no dragon balls at all. It makes everything seem "real" with true everlasting consequences. So unless another Black comes along that kills all the kaioshins and all dragon balls, there will never be any true consequences.
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Post by iron leaf on Apr 8, 2018 22:09:11 GMT
Sigh. You guys are so right. #17 was somehow the big highlight of this arc. I even liked his character in DBS. The ending was maybe ok, just not in my perspective. I guess I have waaaaay too high standards for continuations in general whether it is a book sequel (Metro2033), game sequel (Uncharted), movie sequel (Star Wars), series sequel (Avatar) or any other kind of continual storytelling of established storys. And it is kinda naive to believe Dragonball of all franchises would improve itself in regard of surpassing the predecessor. DBS in general is a mess. Deep inside I was hoping till the end that DBS could fulfill my expectations in any kind even if could be just one tiny little aspect. Now, DBS ending or how people wanna call, being on a hiatus, it is similar compared to the transition from Dragonball to Dragonball Z. It has somehow a starting point and an end point. And I'm disappointed. And how can somebody not be disappointed when watching this and aftwerwards the best Toeyama could pull off as the pinnacle of DBS was this Mr. Anti hero Assassin and Mr. Powerhouse Genericson When I heard the 12 universes idea for the first time I was happy and somehow excited what could come next. And as a DBM reader I knew this idea could work. Instead we get this Yep, those characters are exactly how I imagined the strongest fighters of other universes.
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Post by Axalon on Apr 10, 2018 21:56:49 GMT
Sigh. You guys are so right. #17 was somehow the big highlight of this arc. I even liked his character in DBS. The ending was maybe ok, just not in my perspective. I think a lot of #17's appeal in the ToP to many people was simply the way he fought his fights. He had an absolutely absurd power-up, yes, but he still wasn't about just becoming a bigger number like Goku always does. #17 actually bothered to be strategic and was constantly doing so, unlike Goku who only gets strategic when his number is vastly smaller than the enemy's number. Take when he interrupted Ribrianne and the others from transforming for instance. That's a smart move. The stakes are universal survival so why would you risk your opponents transforming and getting stronger? Now sure Ribrianne ended up being weaker than #18 but that's neither here nor there. #17 made the smart move but Goku being Goku was too busy getting all hot and bothered to consider the stakes. Goku just overpowered all his foes in the ToP, #17 on the other hand took advantage of weak points, used the element of surprise, and overall was looking out for his teammates more than Goku. In many ways #17 had the same qualities that Hit displayed when fighting Jiren. Hit's number is even lower than Goku's by a vast margin yet still he was more successful than Goku's first two attempts against Jiren, all thanks to tactics and adapting to the enemy. Hit and #17 showed the true potential of the what the ToP could have been before it devolved into yet another arc about Goku making his number bigger than the other guy's number. Ugh. I'm so sad that the Trio de Dangers were just thrown aside in the manga. Those guys had some potential.
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Post by Xeno Black on Apr 12, 2018 19:52:50 GMT
I cannot figure out where to place this (we seriously need a fan-made only thread for Super), but MaSTAR Media, famously known for his Anime Wars series, created this cool video depicting his version of the Super movie. He spliced the scenes with the actual teaser along with his animation, which is solid despite most scenes obviously being traced. But the plot is where it shines and would not mind if this variant became its own stand-alone version of the movie. And the selected OST and sound effects do not hurt this film. Akumo is a nice counterpart to Yamoshi. His design and serious personality is classic yet rough. Now strong similarities between Broly, Turles, and even Raditz are present, but Akumo does stand out despite these traits. Still his overall persona is cliche, but at least is not bad either. Check it out:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 13:33:23 GMT
The ending was a fun watch as a standalone episode but I didn't feel it was very satisfying as a conclusion to the saga. The only memorable thing about this saga in my opinion will be the fan service but pacing, execution, and most everything else probably won't be viewed very positively in a few years. I'll wait until I'm back to my computer next month to post a more detailed comment.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Apr 14, 2018 11:41:25 GMT
This would have made the whole tournament so much more engaging.
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Post by Kirasha on Apr 14, 2018 11:55:16 GMT
Let's see, some spaces are left unfilled but did actually happen. - Frieza did technically cause a "GoD fight" since Toppo went full on GoD during the ToP thanks to Frieza.
- While it was not a GoD that Hakai'd Frost, he did get Hakai'd basically.
- 17 and 18 did do a combo attack.
- Vegeta ended up getting jobbed honestly.
- Toppo did fight Frieza.
- Hit got jobbed as well.
- And a human is in the final 10 in the form of 17.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2018 16:51:14 GMT
Preview image from the upcoming movie. I wonder how this ancient legendary Saiyan is going to be a threat to Goku and Vegeta? Legendary UI? He has a tail so maybe Toriyama trolls the fans and gives him an alternate SSJ4?
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Post by VoidSlayer on Apr 14, 2018 22:28:43 GMT
Let's see, some spaces are left unfilled but did actually happen. - Frieza did technically cause a "GoD fight" since Toppo went full on GoD during the ToP thanks to Frieza.
- While it was not a GoD that Hakai'd Frost, he did get Hakai'd basically.
- 17 and 18 did do a combo attack.
- Vegeta ended up getting jobbed honestly.
- Toppo did fight Frieza.
- Hit got jobbed as well.
- And a human is in the final 10 in the form of 17.
Goku and Jiren also become "Buds' or at least friendly rivals, so if you had the top line you had the win!
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Post by Axalon on Apr 14, 2018 23:46:37 GMT
Let's see, some spaces are left unfilled but did actually happen. - Frieza did technically cause a "GoD fight" since Toppo went full on GoD during the ToP thanks to Frieza.
- While it was not a GoD that Hakai'd Frost, he did get Hakai'd basically.
- 17 and 18 did do a combo attack.
- Vegeta ended up getting jobbed honestly.
- Toppo did fight Frieza.
- Hit got jobbed as well.
- And a human is in the final 10 in the form of 17.
Goku and Jiren also become "Buds' or at least friendly rivals, so if you had the top line you had the win! Yup.
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Post by Kirasha on Apr 15, 2018 8:03:49 GMT
Let's see, some spaces are left unfilled but did actually happen. - Frieza did technically cause a "GoD fight" since Toppo went full on GoD during the ToP thanks to Frieza.
- While it was not a GoD that Hakai'd Frost, he did get Hakai'd basically.
- 17 and 18 did do a combo attack.
- Vegeta ended up getting jobbed honestly.
- Toppo did fight Frieza.
- Hit got jobbed as well.
- And a human is in the final 10 in the form of 17.
Goku and Jiren also become "Buds' or at least friendly rivals, so if you had the top line you had the win! Basically yes, as is the last line, top to bottom on the right a win. ;D
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Post by VoidSlayer on Apr 15, 2018 8:33:59 GMT
Goku and Jiren also become "Buds' or at least friendly rivals, so if you had the top line you had the win! Basically yes, as is the last line, top to bottom on the right a win. ;D Legit question- Can we count the Androids as human? Because not to be 'that guy' but in this i'm fairly certain they're only referring to the un-augmented humans (Tien, Krillin, Roshi)
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Post by Kirasha on Apr 15, 2018 12:19:32 GMT
Basically yes, as is the last line, top to bottom on the right a win. ;D Legit question- Can we count the Androids as human? Because not to be 'that guy' but in this i'm fairly certain they're only referring to the un-augmented humans (Tien, Krillin, Roshi) Personally I count them as humans, cybernetically enhanced humans but humans nonetheless. And considering both have also been capable of having children, I don't see why to not count them as humans. Now had it been someone like Gohan, then yeah, I could see that argument work since he's half Saiyan, but I see no reason to discount 17 or 18 as humans just because they are augmented. That's like saying Tien isn't human cause he got a third eye and can grow two extra arms. Or Krillin for not having a nose, because, since when do humans not have noses? Granted, I'm nitpicking at that point but still, point remains.
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