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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jul 5, 2018 0:07:41 GMT
I always had this headcanon that Xeno Goku is the "ultimate" Goku that's comprised of all timelines and has all their respective "Goku" powers to his usage. That being said, I would like to think the ultimate Goku has to be "a hero's legacy" immortal Goku. I got one better: Xeno Goku is the [Funimation] English Dub Goku, the heroic defender against all that is evil, and Super Goku is Japanese Dub Goku that just searches for a challenger... but sometimes does heroic stuff if it helps him fight someone strong.
(Yeah yeah, the metaphor is lost bc both of them are speaking Japanese.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 5:25:33 GMT
Seeing this more mature Goku makes his characterization in DBS even more frustrating. Dragonball is a series based around self-improvement and bad people reforming and learning the error of their ways so I find it hard to believe that Toriyama truly intended for Goku, the main character himself, to never mature and somehow get stupider, more selfish, and less empathetic as he gets older. It's only natural that a character becomes more mature and wiser as they age and gain more life experience. Goku definitely became more mature throughout DBZ so the only expectation is that his development continues from there as more time passes.
That's honestly the main reason why I'm not looking forward to DBS continuing after this movie. I'm worried it's going to be more of the same as in more recolored transformations (luckily not a whole lot of colors left to use) and the characters repeating the same mistakes over and over again just to have them undergo the same development they should've retained from DBZ. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Gohan lose his power again and then train to regain it a few sagas later or Vegeta claim he's going to single-handedly defeat the villain only to get his ass kicked before inevitably overcoming his pride and teaming up with Goku. In the new movie, I hope that Goku becomes so powerful that he can't go all out without threatening several universes to signal the end of the series. It was said that Beerus and Champa can't fight each other at full power because it would lead to the destruction of both their universes. If MUI Goku is apparently stronger than a God of Destruction, his battle against this new legendary Saiyan could potentially cause even more damage. The final scene in the movie could have Goku shrugging his shoulders saying "I can't fight strong guys again without destroying everything? Guess I'll just die..." then he remembers the endless World of Void and decides to train Uub to challenge him there one day.
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Post by Kirasha on Jul 6, 2018 9:15:29 GMT
I will have to point out, however, that Xeno Goku's maturity is rather sudden as well. It's only been displayed in this Prison Planet Arc so far, he was much like the main Goku in behavior prior to this arc. So it is possible that something has happened that forced this more mature attitude on him, solely because he's normally like the main Goku.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 13:29:39 GMT
I will have to point out, however, that Xeno Goku's maturity is rather sudden as well. It's only been displayed in this Prison Planet Arc so far, he was much like the main Goku in behavior prior to this arc. So it is possible that something has happened that forced this more mature attitude on him, solely because he's normally like the main Goku. Here I was thinking Xeno Goku was just an alternate version of GT Goku or one that continued from where he left off in the Buu saga. If he was like DBS Goku before then I guess I don't have much to look forward to in Heroes previous sagas. There's hope for DBS Goku at least if Xeno started off like him and was able to mature.
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Post by Kirasha on Jul 6, 2018 19:04:39 GMT
Xeno Goku isn't GT Goku no, he shares most of the history main Goku has aside from a few key differences. For one, the Lord Slug movie happened and he wasn't dead during Fusion Reborn either (implying that he never died against Cell) though Towa killed him later and he was revived afterwards. Apparently he was never turned into a kid either, which is obvious since he's constantly an adult in his base form. He's far more powerful than GT Goku, even having been a Super Saiyan God for a brief moment but he never mastered the form. Though this does most likely mean he has God Ki and similar to Super Goku, remained far stronger after having been a Super Saiyan God. It's the prime reason why his SSJ4 form is even possible of coming close to Super's Super Saiyan Blue Goku (whom is supposedly post-ToP Goku).
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Post by Jason9000 on Jul 7, 2018 14:29:39 GMT
Xeno Goku isn't GT Goku no, he shares most of the history main Goku has aside from a few key differences. For one, the Lord Slug movie happened and he wasn't dead during Fusion Reborn either (implying that he never died against Cell) though Towa killed him later and he was revived afterwards. Apparently he was never turned into a kid either, which is obvious since he's constantly an adult in his base form. He's far more powerful than GT Goku, even having been a Super Saiyan God for a brief moment but he never mastered the form. Though this does most likely mean he has God Ki and similar to Super Goku, remained far stronger after having been a Super Saiyan God. It's the prime reason why his SSJ4 form is even possible of coming close to Super's Super Saiyan Blue Goku (whom is supposedly post-ToP Goku). Is this suppose to be post TOP Super Goku? I thought with Mai and Future Trunks there, it took place right after Zamasu was erased and the couple of days before Mai and Future Trunks went to the alternate timeline.
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Post by Kirasha on Jul 10, 2018 23:02:37 GMT
Xeno Goku isn't GT Goku no, he shares most of the history main Goku has aside from a few key differences. For one, the Lord Slug movie happened and he wasn't dead during Fusion Reborn either (implying that he never died against Cell) though Towa killed him later and he was revived afterwards. Apparently he was never turned into a kid either, which is obvious since he's constantly an adult in his base form. He's far more powerful than GT Goku, even having been a Super Saiyan God for a brief moment but he never mastered the form. Though this does most likely mean he has God Ki and similar to Super Goku, remained far stronger after having been a Super Saiyan God. It's the prime reason why his SSJ4 form is even possible of coming close to Super's Super Saiyan Blue Goku (whom is supposedly post-ToP Goku). Is this suppose to be post TOP Super Goku? I thought with Mai and Future Trunks there, it took place right after Zamasu was erased and the couple of days before Mai and Future Trunks went to the alternate timeline. It's really iffy, but yes this is post ToP Goku, how Mai and Trunks are there, I'm pretty sure Fu kidnapped Trunks from the alternate future and Mai somehow managed to come here.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 2, 2018 3:29:54 GMT
Do people know if Piccolo is popular in Japan? It seems odd how he has been pushed to the background and not doing anything anymore. Now that the power system isn't as strict as it was before it I would expect Piccolo would be allowed to catch up to Goku and Vegeta the same way 17 and Freeza did. 17 I can't imagine was all that popular in Japan before the Tournament of Power just given how little screen time he had overall, yet he was allowed a power jump and given a bigger role. Piccolo has stayed just sort of there. Has he fallen out of style in Japan and Toriyama stopped caring about keeping him on the front lines?
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Post by Axalon on Aug 27, 2018 3:07:39 GMT
Do people know if Piccolo is popular in Japan? It seems odd how he has been pushed to the background and not doing anything anymore. Now that the power system isn't as strict as it was before it I would expect Piccolo would be allowed to catch up to Goku and Vegeta the same way 17 and Freeza did. 17 I can't imagine was all that popular in Japan before the Tournament of Power just given how little screen time he had overall, yet he was allowed a power jump and given a bigger role. Piccolo has stayed just sort of there. Has he fallen out of style in Japan and Toriyama stopped caring about keeping him on the front lines? According to the DB Kanzenban Official Guide: Dragon Ball Forever, a guidebook published with a re-release of the manga (and pre-DBS), Piccolo ranked #5 overall in character popularity: Goku Vegeta Gohan Trunks--(I'm assuming this is Future Trunks) Piccolo Goten Krillin Majin Boo Freeza Android 18 Mr. Satan Karin Master Roshi Cell Yamcha Tenshinhan Bulma Android 17 Yajirobe Videl Quite frankly I'm positively stunned at Goten's popularity in this particular poll. Above ALL the villains and even Krillin! Somehow Karin is even in there! Even Videl somehow squeaks by! I'm also assuming this is only including canon characters as well, so Broly (at the time), Cooler, etc weren't included. Obviously this poll isn't all-inclusive of character popularity, but I don't see the Top 10 changing all that much relatively speaking. Karin being as high as he is makes me doubt the authenticity, but maybe he was just really popular at the time for SOME indiscernible reason. This list of three polls also has Piccolo all ranked at #5 as well behind most of the usual suspects (Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Trunks). Gotenks surprisingly shows up as #4 in one, with Gohan being kicked to the curb at #6 but given that Gotenks was a relatively new character and the battle with Super Buu was raging at the time of that particular poll he apparently had a brief spike in popularity as the new shiny character with the new shiny SS3 transformation. It'd be a safe assumption that Piccolo is one of, if not the most popular non-Saiyan characters. If I had to assume close non-Saiyan rivals nowadays it'd probably be #17 for being the ToP MVP, Frieza, and I dunno probably Beerus or Buu or something. Also Vegeta is doomed to play second fiddle to Goku in everything. Even popularity polls!
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 27, 2018 3:59:55 GMT
If Super ever comes back I really hope Toriyama just let's them go past the original manga/DBZ anime. I don't really get why he is sticking to this in between Kid Buu's defeat and Goku meeting Uub timeline. It made sense when he was doing a one off canon movie with Battle of Gods, but now that we have a full on revival it is really more constraining to have to stick to such a short time frame. How many times have they used the Dragon Balls now? They used them to find out about Super Saiyan God ritual, Freeza got resurrected, and they used them to cure Pan of her mysterious illness, and other wishes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 20:57:49 GMT
If Super ever comes back I really hope Toriyama just let's them go past the original manga/DBZ anime. I don't really get why he is sticking to this in between Kid Buu's defeat and Goku meeting Uub timeline. It made sense when he was doing a one off canon movie with Battle of Gods, but now that we have a full on revival it is really more constraining to have to stick to such a short time frame. How many times have they used the Dragon Balls now? They used them to find out about Super Saiyan God ritual, Freeza got resurrected, and they used them to cure Pan of her mysterious illness, and other wishes. Toriyama made it clear why he chose this time period so the question is if he changed his mind since the last few interviews. I think a question we should ask ourselves is do we really want it continue after EoZ? If it continues, what is likely guaranteed is more fan service, recolored transformations, and inclusion of every remaining fanfic idea they haven't used already. I would like to see Uub but I think we're a niche audience. I don't think he's popular enough for a leading role so it'll likely be Goku and Vegeta in the spotlight with Uub as more of sidekick.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 27, 2018 22:23:29 GMT
If Super ever comes back I really hope Toriyama just let's them go past the original manga/DBZ anime. I don't really get why he is sticking to this in between Kid Buu's defeat and Goku meeting Uub timeline. It made sense when he was doing a one off canon movie with Battle of Gods, but now that we have a full on revival it is really more constraining to have to stick to such a short time frame. How many times have they used the Dragon Balls now? They used them to find out about Super Saiyan God ritual, Freeza got resurrected, and they used them to cure Pan of her mysterious illness, and other wishes. Toriyama made it clear why he chose this time period so the question is if he changed his mind since the last few interviews. I think a question we should ask ourselves is do we really want it continue after EoZ? If it continues, what is likely guaranteed is more fan service, recolored transformations, and inclusion of every remaining fanfic idea they haven't used already. I would like to see Uub but I think we're a niche audience. I don't think he's popular enough for a leading role so it'll likely be Goku and Vegeta in the spotlight with Uub as more of sidekick. If they make a new DB continuation any time in the near future I frankly would rather Toriyama just let writers set the story after the original ending so they aren’t as constrained by a very specific and limited timeline. To me it is stupid for Toriyama to be so against making a story after the end of the original series, yet supply them with new story ideas and keeping things going.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 23:09:04 GMT
If they make a new DB continuation any time in the near future I frankly would rather Toriyama just let writers set the story after the original ending so they aren’t as constrained by a very specific and limited timeline. To me it is stupid for Toriyama to be so against making a story after the end of the original series, yet supply them with new story ideas and keeping things going. To be honest I don't think it would make a big difference. All of these storylines could've easily taken place after EoZ. If it continues after that, it'll be more of the same with the most popular characters taking the spotlight. Goten and Trunks haven't done anything in DBS aside from a few gags so I don't know if would risk giving any of the next generation a major role unless they feel they're more popular than Goten and Trunks. I could be wrong but this is my expectation based on what we've seen throughout DBS. I'm also curious what kind of antagonists we could see that aren't rehashed from previous villains. I remember we've had this discussion before so it would help if you offer some suggestions of what you're hoping to see.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 28, 2018 0:24:46 GMT
Toriyama made it clear why he chose this time period so the question is if he changed his mind since the last few interviews. I think a question we should ask ourselves is do we really want it continue after EoZ? If it continues, what is likely guaranteed is more fan service, recolored transformations, and inclusion of every remaining fanfic idea they haven't used already. I would like to see Uub but I think we're a niche audience. I don't think he's popular enough for a leading role so it'll likely be Goku and Vegeta in the spotlight with Uub as more of sidekick. If they make a new DB continuation any time in the near future I frankly would rather Toriyama just let writers set the story after the original ending so they aren’t as constrained by a very specific and limited timeline. To me it is stupid for Toriyama to be so against making a story after the end of the original series, yet supply them with new story ideas and keeping things going. To me, the scope of the series is just as much a problem as the timeline. Even if the series was allowed to go post-EoZ, the PLs have been raised so high that I don't see where it could go. GT avoided this by having feats stay relatively small, but in DBS we've already got universe-busters and the King of the Omniverse--at this point it's kind of hard to come up with new antagonists or new places to take the story. Not to mention current trends indicate that it'll still be Goku and Vegeta's show anyway, so there's not much point to aging up anyone. This is why I'm a huge fan of a from-the-roots-up reboot of the series. Lower PLs means more options, both for plot and cast. If we'd gotten to EoZ and characters weren't universe-busters, there'd be more places to take the story.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 1:00:02 GMT
AshanarkThat's always been my biggest concern of it going too far. In the other DBS/fanfic thread I made, I tried coming up with a few antagonists but they all ended with every God tier good guy teaming up to stop this +universe busting threat before Zeno finds out. I think it would pretty contrived if someone that powerful showed up and Goku and Vegeta were the only ones available to fight him. I doubt they would rehash what happened in the Goku Black saga with someone killing all the Kaioshin/Gods of Destruction one by one.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 28, 2018 1:14:41 GMT
If they make a new DB continuation any time in the near future I frankly would rather Toriyama just let writers set the story after the original ending so they aren’t as constrained by a very specific and limited timeline. To me it is stupid for Toriyama to be so against making a story after the end of the original series, yet supply them with new story ideas and keeping things going. To be honest I don't think it would make a big difference. All of these storylines could've easily taken place after EoZ. If it continues after that, it'll be more of the same with the most popular characters taking the spotlight. Goten and Trunks haven't done anything in DBS aside from a few gags so I don't know if would risk giving any of the next generation a major role unless they feel they're more popular than Goten and Trunks. I could be wrong but this is my expectation based on what we've seen throughout DBS. I'm also curious what kind of antagonists we could see that aren't rehashed from previous villains. I remember we've had this discussion before so it would help if you offer some suggestions of what you're hoping to see. For antagonists, I think an actual team capable of doing something as opposed to being fodder would be a good start. Like if the Ginyus or the Pride Troopers were actually both competent AND couldn't get wiped out by Goku sneezing. The Trio de Dangers were a good step in this direction...and then they just weren't strong enough. Which I feel is the root of several problems in DB as a whole. Power is everything. DB tends to divide characters into a few select groups: 1. Gimmicky characters who aside from their gimmick actually suck when the gimmick doesn't work, and may even suck when the gimmick works regardless. This goes back to early DB with someone like Bacterian, just as an example, but can include someone like Future Zamasu, who without his immortality would've been killed off fairly quickly since Goku and Vegeta far surpassed him, and hell even Trunks would've kicked his ass without Black around. 2. Supah Powahful characters who win just because they're the strongest. This is a select group and includes both protagonists and antagonists. This is basically the Main Character group, with a few exceptions. We're talking the Jirens, the Gokus, the Namek Saga Friezas, etc. Characters will get kicked out of this group over time as the plot requires to make room for new ones. Goku and Vegeta frequently dip between this group and Group 4, explained below. 3. Fodder characters who aren't worth anything because they're too weak. This can include characters from Group 1 whose gimmick no longer works, but also includes just cannon fodder like Frieza Soldier #53482. The lowest of groups. Characters can easily find themselves demoted to this group, which in the face of a Group 2 character essentially makes all the other groups also fall into this group. 4. Fairly balanced character. Emphasis on the fairly part of that description, and "fairly" will also change as the power creep changes. What was "fairly balanced" in the Namek Saga means nothing in the Buu Saga. They aren't overpowered, but can find themselves overwhelmed if they aren't careful. These are characters who are skilled, may or may not have a gimmick and can generally hold their own in a fight, but aren't strong enough to do anything too significant if a Group 2 character is around. In the presence of fodder characters or those more reliant on gimmicks than on skill these can be mistaken for a Group 2 character. Can occasionally climb up to Group 2 if they're the uncontested powerhouse in the room, but more often than not get kicked down again. If there's an overabundance of Group 2 POWAH these guys will get lumped into Group 3 fairly quickly on the basis of lack of power alone. This group has the Piccolos, the Hits, etc. If you're paying attention and noticed that this also happens to be the biggest description, congratulations! Have an internet cookie! The most interesting group in my opinion. Every single character in DB can fall into one of these four groups, with many crossing over to different ones as the plot requires. Groups 1, 3, and 4 tend to have a LOT of crossover, while Group 2 characters will occasionally dip into Group 4 (Goku) until they punch and scream their way back into Group 2 (Goku) again. Old villains may tend to fall into Group 4 (Perfect Cell, Hit) over time due to power creep, and as the power creep progresses will find themselves fodderized and fall into Group 1 or Group 3 entirely (Raditz). Vegeta tends to lead Group 4 fairly often, claws his way up to Group 2, then gets kicked down to Group 4 again. And this all stems from the fact that a higher power level means a stronger character is literally better in every category than a weaker character. This requires either a gimmick--and a good one--or just raw power. Not even skill actually matters in a fight if one fighter is vastly superior to another. Take Raditz for instance. I'd argue that Goku and Piccolo were easily better martial artists, but it didn't matter because Raditz was 4x stronger than them, which meant he could reflexively dodge and weave through the coordinated assault of Goku and Piccolo. This is also why Ultra Instinct inexplicably came with a massive power boost/transformation for Goku--because it wouldn't have mattered if Goku was now in perfect tune with himself and could dodge without thinking if Jiren was still massively stronger and could just outspeed Goku. Hard to autododge an enemy when they can move faster than you can react! Anime Dyspo was another example of this. His "Super Maximum Light Speed Mode" or whatever wasn't just him going really, really fast but at the same power level he was previously, it was a straight up powerup matched briefly by Gohan just powering up and trading punches with him while Frieza provided some decoration. This vertical power creep tends to eliminate many different avenues one could typically use to make fights interesting. When Frieza went into his third form, Piccolo claimed that while Frieza may now have had power, he still had speed--which was proven wrong basically immediately. I honestly don't know why Piccolo fathomed the idea that he was faster than Frieza unless he vastly underestimated Frieza's power, but it all looks very silly in hindsight. So now instead of fights where Character A hits waaaaay harder but Character B is faster, now Character A can not only hit harder, but he's also faster than Character B! For instance, let's say that Goku and Jiren were about on an equal footing with each other instead of Jiren just outclassing Goku entirely like what happened in the actual ToP. UI Goku, with no powerup, would have an advantage here since now he can just dodge and attack Jiren without even thinking about it while Jiren tries to keep up with an opponent maximizing his body's reaction time. It isn't an auto-win for Goku, since the power levels are still about equal, but it's still a tangible advantage clear for all to see. But DB isn't gonna have any of that. Power is everything because it improves everything. Dyspo initially was afraid of Frieza and claimed he couldn't take him on! Well. Until he powered up. Suddenly not only is he taking on Frieza, but now he's beating up Golden Frieza! And Frieza even needs Gohan's help! What happened? Dyspo increased his power, simple as that. So as to the challenge @skar put for a character that ALSO isn't just a rehash of a character we've already seen? That's tough. My initial thought, after my grumblings about a team that didn't suck, was some kind of stealthy sniper character, but NOPE, that happened in the ToP! To be fair, the Z Fighters were horribly confused by the sniper guy for a little while until they figured out the gimmick, which goes to show just how unfamiliar they were with that more modern combat style as opposed to martial arts. My next thought took some inspiration from Samurai Jack, where Jack fought the evil within himself. TL;DR - Aku took the festering anger within Jack and manifested it to kill Jack with it. In this, Jack is essentially fighting...himself! His opponent has identical skills, identical fighting prowess, stats, you name it, and an equally unbreakable sword. The more Jack fights "Mad Jack" the more of a stalemate it is. They are literally equal. In the end Jack realizes that this an opponent that he CANNOT defeat by just swinging his sword really hard or really fast and defeats him instead by mastering his own inner rage, causing "Mad Jack" to simply stop existing. Now...apply this to DB. We have an opponent with all the skills and power of someone like Goku or Vegeta. I don't mean like Copy-Vegeta or Goku Black either, those are different. Or perhaps a group of opponents who are all just copies of Z Fighters. What's that? Vegeta went Super Saiyan Rage Blue 5 Evolution God to defeat "Pride" Vegeta? Oh, wouldja look at that, Pride Vegeta ALSO just went Super Saiyan Rage Blue 5 Evolution God! What if we just had Vegeta go attack Evil Krillin? He's stronger than Krillin, so he should be able to kill Evil Krillin, right? Oh no! Evil Krillin just turned into Pride Vegeta! Basically no cop-outs like that either, where the Z Fighters can just swap out and Goku beats Pride Vegeta or something. You could even have some kind of character development similar to Samurai Jack where the Z Fighters are forced to confront something ugly about themselves and master it, as it's the only way to beat this particular opponent. ...That's about all I got though.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 28, 2018 1:53:32 GMT
If they make a new DB continuation any time in the near future I frankly would rather Toriyama just let writers set the story after the original ending so they aren’t as constrained by a very specific and limited timeline. To me it is stupid for Toriyama to be so against making a story after the end of the original series, yet supply them with new story ideas and keeping things going. To be honest I don't think it would make a big difference. All of these storylines could've easily taken place after EoZ. If it continues after that, it'll be more of the same with the most popular characters taking the spotlight. Goten and Trunks haven't done anything in DBS aside from a few gags so I don't know if would risk giving any of the next generation a major role unless they feel they're more popular than Goten and Trunks. I could be wrong but this is my expectation based on what we've seen throughout DBS. I'm also curious what kind of antagonists we could see that aren't rehashed from previous villains. I remember we've had this discussion before so it would help if you offer some suggestions of what you're hoping to see. Oh, I don’t expect it to magically make everything better in any major capacity. I just prefer the action to b able to be spread out rather than having a new major event happen every few weeks or whatever because the timeline has to try to follow DBZ timeline. It is more of nitpick then anything, but it just feels like since they already putting so much story in between the 10 year period that they might as well just set it afterward and that way no one has to worry about DB in general will be changed or not by whatever storyline Super takes. How many times have people on here talked about how they worry Toriyama can recouncil Super with his original ending? To me if they are going to keep beating a dead horse then they might as well just go post Z just to get rid of that headache. At this point I would want a total reboot to revamp the franchise and allow for older characters and ideas to be reused differently and reset the power scale/system so it’s not as broken and allow all the characters a chance to shine.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 28, 2018 4:38:50 GMT
Axalon Excellent breakdown! Well, and this is why I keep ranting about how the series needs to be reworked from the roots-up. The issues we're talking about with character balance and such can't be fixed without some core writing philosophies being changed. Ever since Mercenary Tao--where he beat Goku by just being stronger, and Goku beat him back by just being stronger in return--the series has been hopelessly trapped by PLs. I haven't been able enjoy DB as much as I used to ever since I realized that, with almost no exceptions, the guy with the bigger number wins. This takes all teamwork, strategy, and creativity out of the equation and keeps the cast hopelessly narrow. It's this line of thinking that's made Goku and Vegeta the only people who can be relevant, since there are no powerups for humans or Nameks or whatever. But even if there were, this would only be a band-aid on the real problem. A PL-dominated story naturally thins the cast, since it allows for a one-man show; once PL isn't everything, all of a sudden there's a benefit to teamwork. If more people actually get a chance to do something, then maybe Goku won't be topping the popularity polls for 20 years in a row. Since I'm an unashamed nerd, for the past few years I've been working on a "low-PLs runthrough" of DB, where new villains are threats because of abilities or tactics instead of higher numbers. If Recoome can dominate Nappa, it's not because he's got a PL of 40,000 and Nappa's at 8,000, but because Recoome has more training, better techniques, stuff like that. PLs still exist, and there are a few "arc bosses" (King Piccolo, Frieza, Perfect Cell, Buu) who require some kind of powerup to beat, but everyone else--Tao, Piccolo Jr., Ginyus, Androids, Imperfect Cell, Dabura--are all either decently close to each other in strength or else not so high that training wouldn't make characters of previous sagas viable. Basically: take Holy Water and zenkais out of the equation and find ways to keep Super Saiyan limited, and see what happens. That's the basic premise, though there are some general story changes, too--some pretty obvious, like having permanent character death and not killing off Raditz so fast, and some pretty strange, like making Nam a regular cast member, increasing the number of androids, and making Chi-Chi a fighter in Saiyan saga and Namek (!!). Maybe I'll make a thread about all my ideas sometime. It'd be interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on what a remake of DBZ should look like, too. As for what Dragon Ball could do for future antagonists, really and truly the easiest solutions aren't to go vertical. If you keep looking for ways to justify a higher PL, things're only going to get crazier and crazier and all the villains will be forgettable--just look at Jiren. Along with my low-PLs retelling, I've also got a DBZ sequel in the works and there are a few ideas I came up with for baddies: -- An enemy that turns off Super Saiyan transformations -- An enemy that cancels ki entirely -- The arc villain is actually a ghost (gasp, spoiler) who can't hurt people or even possess people but nevertheless can't be harmed in any way original idea plz dont steal
Heck, there are even some fan concepts that could make good post-DBZ villains if reused: -- Baby. Have him possess Goku instead of Vegeta and you're good to go -- A guy like DBM Raichi. Reusing all the ghosts of the past, and then combining them into a super ghost? Great concept. Nice and scary, too. -- Shadow Dragons. But yeah, I'll always argue the correct solution for DBZ is to get away from PLs. They are the bane of this series. The more people in the cast that are relevant, the better. (Cell Games is my favorite era of DBZ since there are about 5 heroes who can all give each other a fight). I don't see that happening unless you completely rework the rules of the story.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 4:59:28 GMT
Oh, I don’t expect it to magically make everything better in any major capacity. I just prefer the action to b able to be spread out rather than having a new major event happen every few weeks or whatever because the timeline has to try to follow DBZ timeline. It is more of nitpick then anything, but it just feels like since they already putting so much story in between the 10 year period that they might as well just set it afterward and that way no one has to worry about DB in general will be changed or not by whatever storyline Super takes. How many times have people on here talked about how they worry Toriyama can recouncil Super with his original ending? To me if they are going to keep beating a dead horse then they might as well just go post Z just to get rid of that headache. At this point I would want a total reboot to revamp the franchise and allow for older characters and ideas to be reused differently and reset the power scale/system so it’s not as broken and allow all the characters a chance to shine. I would definitely prefer to see a reboot than them continuing with DBS. I'm not sure how popular reboots are in Japan because I've only seen them done for shorter anime or ones that feature new protagonists each saga/season. I don't know if a major long running anime has ever successfully had a reboot so we might be a minor audience. One theory why the ToP had the lowest ratings for a saga in DBS was because it focused on a larger cast so there was less screentime for Goku. If ever do have an EoZ sequel or reboot, I'm worried it would focus mainly on Goku with Vegeta trying to keep up.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 28, 2018 5:30:41 GMT
Oh, I don’t expect it to magically make everything better in any major capacity. I just prefer the action to b able to be spread out rather than having a new major event happen every few weeks or whatever because the timeline has to try to follow DBZ timeline. It is more of nitpick then anything, but it just feels like since they already putting so much story in between the 10 year period that they might as well just set it afterward and that way no one has to worry about DB in general will be changed or not by whatever storyline Super takes. How many times have people on here talked about how they worry Toriyama can recouncil Super with his original ending? To me if they are going to keep beating a dead horse then they might as well just go post Z just to get rid of that headache. At this point I would want a total reboot to revamp the franchise and allow for older characters and ideas to be reused differently and reset the power scale/system so it’s not as broken and allow all the characters a chance to shine. I would definitely prefer to see a reboot than them continuing with DBS. I'm not sure how popular reboots are in Japan because I've only seen them done for shorter anime or ones that feature new protagonists each saga/season. I don't know if a major long running anime has ever successfully had a reboot so we might be a minor audience. One theory why the ToP had the lowest ratings for a saga in DBS was because it focused on a larger cast so there was less screentime for Goku. If ever do have an EoZ sequel or reboot, I'm worried it would focus mainly on Goku with Vegeta trying to keep up. Seasonal anime weren't that popular in Japan, but now we're getting to have more seasonal anime compared to even a decade ago and it has been proven to work. Attack on Titan and My Hero Academia for example have proven it can work and the audience in Japan is willing to wait to get more of the story when making a ton of filler with these types of anime were more common until the manga got further ahead. Perhaps if a reboot was to do well in Japan that it could work. The series can handle Goku being the main focus while giving other characters screen time. Dragon Ball Z had Goku late to the fight or sidelined for most of its run while saving him for the big or final fights and it worked well for Japanese audiences. Were Toriyama failed was not keeping the side and supporting characters up to speed with Goku and the Saiyans, since he mostly kept giving Saiyans more and more quick power ups to justify them getting so strong on Namek when there was no time to train.
A reboot could still keep Goku as the star, while having the other characters gain focus. The key is really coming up with good stories for them or giving them great fights that will keep the audience engaged, which is a big appeal of Dragon Ball. For example in a reboot it is possible Chichi could be made into a more serious fighter with her no shit taking personality intact to add a new bit to her relationship with Goku and that could go well or bad depending on how the audience takes her fights. If she has her own style, actually allowed to win fights, while having a strong personality or even a hot and cold style with Goku there is a good chance she would do well. Those are usually fine with viewers or readers with female characters. If Yamecha and Krillin the punching bags of the western fandom were reintroduced and given a fair shot at keeping up with Goku they too can get fans approval. If the fights are still great, but more story and character interaction I think a new Dragon Ball has a shot of succeeding. People seem to like the slice of life moments in Super, so I think people are willing to see the other characters. If we got stuff like a revamped Freeza that still has the same personality, but we actually get to see his people and home planet more, which can retroactively make Cooler canon and develop King Cold more to add something new to the fandom that they may really get them on board.
It might not work at all and bomb I admit. I do think a rebooted universe just has more of a chance to redo or expand on Toriyama ideas. The universe doesn't have to be empty so that bigger threats and grander adventures can grow organically.
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