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Post by thejakub on Sept 8, 2017 0:51:49 GMT
Btw, have you thought about including Vegeta SSJ U7 in this chart?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 16:16:57 GMT
ArgeliosI wanted to say great job on that graphic! That took a lot of time and dedication to design it and gather the images. Keep up the good work!
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Post by Solus on Sept 8, 2017 16:21:09 GMT
Btw, have you thought about including Vegeta SSJ U7 in this chart? That would be absolutely unneccessary. We have no idea how strong he is, so there is no point in puting him here in that chart.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 8, 2017 17:42:29 GMT
Btw, have you thought about including Vegeta SSJ U7 in this chart? That would be absolutely unneccessary. We have no idea how strong he is, so there is no point in puting him here in that chart. We should wait for him depicted dead in U7, to see what's the maximum power he reached. I think depending how history went, and how much he kept fighting/hanging around Gast, it's possible he even reached SSJ2 before dying.
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Post by iron leaf on Sept 9, 2017 14:19:27 GMT
Great job. I love it. BUT, I have to criticize some things.
U13 Raditz (Ozaru) = U13 Nappa (Ozaru) -- Level 1 A bit unsettling you already put Mystic Raditz in the ranking. It is only implied that Raditz's Mystic form would be used to defeat U13 Vegeta, furthermore that suggest Mystic Raditz would be SS3 Tier at least. So, you put him in the right spot but you should add hypothetical.
U8 Cooler > U8 Freeza (Even with augmented form) -- Level 2 Others already mentioned this.
U14 C-18 (repaired) = U9 Yamcha, U9 Tien -- Level 3 Maybe not as strong as Yamcha, but deserves definitely a spot in Level 3. It was implied in the fight against XXI that she was stronger than C-17 after ZenBuu repaired her.
U3 Ghost Vegeta (SS1) > U18 Pan (SS1) -- Level 2 After reading the fanfiction I had the feeling that Vegeta Junior defeated Bardock in Universe 3 and claimed the throne. I think it would be the right thing to put him in the highest spot in Level 2.
U19 Tidar (normal armor) < U8 Freeza -- Level 1 The ultra armor is powerful enough to kill a SS2, but I think the normal armor would be around Freeza tier.
U9 Krilin < U9 Tien -- Level 3 I don't know why you put him so far behind Yamcha and Tien. Krilin himself stated he was stronger in his youth, but I think the difference between him and Tien aren't so big. I would say weakest in Level 3. (It wouldn't make sense for Level 2 Krilin to stand a chance against Hildegarn Level 5 for so long, Level 3 sounds more credible)
U3 Piccolo Daimao (Kami absorbed) > U18 Pan (SS1) > U8 Cooler -- Level 2 I love DBM-Pan very much, but you put her way too high. she sould be between Piccolo and Cooler. Her martial arts training with Son Goku was definitely great, but she just transformed into a SS1. No way, she could be the strongest in Level 2.
U18 Old Goku (SS2) -- it is unsettling you put it in the ranking in the first place. It was an ilusion after all. We shouldn't pay too much attention to this in my opinion.
U19 Heloits (no armor) -- I think thats too high. I know what was stated in page 373 but I can't imagine them being really so strong. I have to recall what was stated in the U19 fanfiction about their strength. Honestly, I don't know where to put them in the ranking.
U13 female Vegeta SS2 -- ehm, yeah, please remove that. funny but no.
U3 Hildegarn > U12 Trunks > West & North Kaioshin -- Level 5 Mhm, I think it is better if you flip West & North Kaioshon with Hildegarn. Wrath of the the dragon had some inconsistency but I think that Hildegarn beat up everyone in the movie justifies a higher ranking than Mirai Trunks (weak SS2 tier) & Kaioshins.
U13 Vegeta (SS3) > U11 Majin Buu & U1 South Kaioshin -- Level 6 I have no argument for this one. It just looks weird to me, that Vegeta SS3 should be same tier as South Kai.
It is really cool you are doing this. Kudos!
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Post by Argelios on Sept 9, 2017 19:21:51 GMT
thejakubNot really, he is not in the tournament plot, same reason I didn't add Kibitoshin. But we can agree Vegeta U7 SSJ should be next to broken androids, right? @skar Thanks a lot! I will. iron leaf-"Hypothetical" was in the first version, I'll add it again. -You are right about Cooler and Vegeta SSJ3. -You might be right about U3 Vegeta, I will put him at the top of Level 2. -About Heloites: it was Salagir's fault, he broke the power lvl of Eleim against A16, but leeeets say that A16 went easy on him, so heloites power lvl should be near Tien? I will move him there. I will also add normal armor (Tidar) next to Heloites, because their armors being weaker than the warriors would be stupid. -I'm not sure Krilin is that strong, he is old, and in the novel he knew he couldn't stand a chance against King Cold or Dabura, even with techniques. -About Pan: Remember the top of Level 2 is GOKU SSJ from Namek, I don't see impossible Pan was there, even she is a newbie. -I will think about taking Old Goku out, Female Vegeta is out. -Yes, Hildegarn will be above Kais.
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Post by Xeno Black on Sept 9, 2017 19:33:01 GMT
thejakub Not really, he is not in the tournament plot, same reason I didn't add Kibitoshin. But we can agree Vegeta U7 SSJ should be next to broken androids, right? @skar Thanks a lot! I will. iron leaf -"Hypothetical" was in the first version, I'll add it again. -You are right about Cooler and Vegeta SSJ3. -You might be right about U3 Vegeta, I will put him at the top of Level 2. -About Heloites: it was Salagir's fault, he broke the power lvl of Eleim against A16, but leeeets say that A16 went easy on him, so heloites power lvl should be near Tien? I will move him there. I will also add normal armor (Tidar) next to Heloites, because their armors being weaker than the warriors would be stupid. -I'm not sure Krilin is that strong, he is old, and in the novel he knew he couldn't stand a chance against King Cold or Dabura, even with techniques. -About Pan: Remember the top of Level 2 is GOKU SSJ from Namek, I don't see impossible Pan was there, even she is a newbie. -I will think about taking Old Goku out, Female Vegeta is out. -Yes, Hildegarn will be above Kais. When it comes to Hirudegarn, at least make him on the same level as Fat Buu, or somewhere in the SSJ3 tier ranking. Seeing Future Trunks on the same level as him irks me to no end.
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Post by Rafael on Sept 10, 2017 16:42:07 GMT
I only disagree with the Saiyan from U3 tier, Hanasia was already stronger than Bardock who was nearing 10,000 of pdl before all of that rebellion against Frieza, after so many years fighting and conquering world the likes of Hanasia and Gerkin were probably around Ginyu Force level of power, maybe Gyniu level(apparently base Bardock is around this level since Raditz was confident he could beat him easily).
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Post by Gogeta on Sept 10, 2017 19:01:53 GMT
I only disagree with the Saiyan from U3 tier, Hanasia was already stronger than Bardock who was nearing 10,000 of pdl before all of that rebellion against Frieza, after so many years fighting and conquering world the likes of Hanasia and Gerkin were probably around Ginyu Force level of power, maybe Gyniu level (apparently base Bardock is around this level since Raditz was confident he could beat him easily).There is no chance Base Bardock is merely Ginyu level based on his performance vs. Kold. If his base was Ginyu level he'd have been slaughtered by the 17/18 Level Kold but instead he kept up with Kold at that level (Kold had the edge but not a decisive one) and forced Kold to power up to 100% (16 Level) to beat him and even then he still got a few decent blows in. And there's the fact that Bardock was close to unlocking USSJ/SSJ2 in the novel too which implies IMO he's around Android level in SSJ. Barodck hadn't even powered up when an enraged Raditz made his boast (we know from the novel he'd learn to conceal his PL) and upon powering up Raditz confidence got shot. Yeah Raditz got some decent hits in but nothing truly serious and IMO Bardock was holding back because Raditz is his son (no matter how much he may try to deny it) until the visions occurred and Bardock got tired of playing around to which he promptly ended the fight. That aside I agree that the Ghost U3 Saiyans HAVE to be far more powerful than what the chart states. There is no way the likes of Bardock, Vegeta and Broly made massive PL gains while the other Saiyans just remained stagnant. I'd say Ginyu level to first form Frieza is a good estimate for the base U3 Elite Saiyans (Hanasia, Gerkin).
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Post by Argelios on Sept 10, 2017 22:05:49 GMT
Xeno Black In the OVA yes, but Salagir retconned Hildegarn so his *strenght* was only above a SSJ, there's more information in the U16 novel, also that's why Krilin could block some of his attacks. Gogeta and Rafael Actually... that makes sense, I didn't consider Saiyan's power increase after Bardock's reign. I will change Level 0 to "Below 25000 KI Tier", and move Belzebub and Sun Wukong (weaker than Dodoria) there. And move Hanassia and Gerkin up at level 1. @everyone What sounds better? -Level 1: Bellow SSJ Tier -Level 0: Bellow 25000 KI Tier or -Level 1: Ginyu Force Tier -Level 2: Bellow Frieza Soldiers Tier And BTW, what about RO Kaioshin? I know because of the witch and his age he is way weaker than East Kai... but what is his power? Could he be near a very weak and basic SSJ (broken androids) ?
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Post by fooshin on Sept 11, 2017 0:47:12 GMT
Awesome job with the chart! Too bad you missed the most important one of all... the "GIGA ULTRA" armour. With that on you could kill buu in one hit.
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Post by lordofbeefdip on Sept 11, 2017 7:52:30 GMT
Very good list, and the diagram is great too.
My biggest gripe would be putting SSj3 Gogeta where he is. I also find it a huge disservice to suggest he would during the Buu saga only be a little ahead of SSj3 Gotenks.
Think about it. Goten and Trunks were strong, but with what we are given we have no reason to really put them as much stronger than Semi Perfect Cell, if that strong. My evidence is that Piccolo was not implied to have made huge gains from Cell to Buu, and then he was still somewhat below Cell Games SSj Vegeta. So at best during Buu he might have been close to MSSj Cell games Goku.
Piccolo was the dominant aspect showing in Buu aftet Gotenks defused inside of him. So for all intents and purposes, Goten and Trunks SSj should be considerably below a high tier SSj.
Yet even as a SSj Gotenks was near par with Fat Buu, someone who murked SSj2 Majin Vegeta. Piccolo only seemed concerned about fusion time limit when he raced to fight Buu, heavily implying that SSj Gotenks was at worst equal to Fat Buu. Meaning that a simple fusion took two mid tier SSjs and created being far stronger than an upper middle level SSj2 fighter. That isn't even considering Goten and Trunks trained briefly in the RoSaT. When Super Buu appeared he was so far beyond Fat Buu things seemed hopeless. Yet upon seeing them fuse Piccolo thought Gotenks had a shot in base when his prior SSj did not. Granted Buu proved it wrong that Gotenks had a chance, but it still strongly implied that Gotenks new power in base alone at least rivaled is prior SSj, and thus Fat Buu. He then went SSj and gave Super Buu a hint of trouble. Meaning his SSj was well into the SSj3 tier, all from two individuals who were likely well below any Cell Games SSj. This also isn't counting that Gotenks got SSj2 (We briefly see this as he is ascending. ) and 3.
Goku and Vegeta come time to fuse would have been stronger than the strongest Cell Games SSj, Gohan, and much stronger than Goten and Trunks. They also had a pretty advanced level of progression in SSj2 , and in Goku's case SSj3.
So it would be no big stretch to see a Buu arch SSj Gogeta utterly manhandling Buuhan, albeit with potentially more effort, if you assume he would have been weaker than Vegetto.
Now discounting the fact that Goku has also likely advanced in power in all forms, Vegeta seems to have an ace up his sleeve to bridge the gap between him and SSj3. Even if he ends up lacking a bit in raw power he has likely advanced considerably since the Buu arc. Goku too in all honesty, especially as a SSj2. Vegetto though has had no one to push him, and by all implications seems to have made only small advancements. So there is a very real chance a hypothetical SSj3 Gogeta could be at least his equal, and at the very least belongs in the same tier, along with Magnificent Bastard Hyper Buu.
We also have no definitive statement on potara really being the stronger fusion, just that pre dumbass retcon it had no time limit.
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Post by Rafael on Sept 12, 2017 3:07:57 GMT
I only disagree with the Saiyan from U3 tier, Hanasia was already stronger than Bardock who was nearing 10,000 of pdl before all of that rebellion against Frieza, after so many years fighting and conquering world the likes of Hanasia and Gerkin were probably around Ginyu Force level of power, maybe Gyniu level (apparently base Bardock is around this level since Raditz was confident he could beat him easily).There is no chance Base Bardock is merely Ginyu level based on his performance vs. Kold. If his base was Ginyu level he'd have been slaughtered by the 17/18 Level Kold but instead he kept up with Kold at that level (Kold had the edge but not a decisive one) and forced Kold to power up to 100% (16 Level) to beat him and even then he still got a few decent blows in. And there's the fact that Bardock was close to unlocking USSJ/SSJ2 in the novel too which implies IMO he's around Android level in SSJ. Barodck hadn't even powered up when an enraged Raditz made his boast (we know from the novel he'd learn to conceal his PL) and upon powering up Raditz confidence got shot. Yeah Raditz got some decent hits in but nothing truly serious and IMO Bardock was holding back because Raditz is his son (no matter how much he may try to deny it) until the visions occurred and Bardock got tired of playing around to which he promptly ended the fight. That aside I agree that the Ghost U3 Saiyans HAVE to be far more powerful than what the chart states. There is no way the likes of Bardock, Vegeta and Broly made massive PL gains while the other Saiyans just remained stagnant. I'd say Ginyu level to first form Frieza is a good estimate for the base U3 Elite Saiyans (Hanasia, Gerkin). His base power is around Ginyu's level, not his Super Saiyan power, I know this doesn't make much sense but that might be the case otherwise Raditz would feel Bardock's power or that he was still hiding a lot of it(base power) and would never brag about being capable of squash him easily since he "compared" Bardock's power with the Ginyus' powers at that moment. Plus, considering that, base Raditz is still not even beyond Frieza most suppressed form(1st form) so he is probably barely above Ginyu even with all his training(poor Raditz lol) and considering the last special of U8 Salagir nerfed Frieza's powers, maybe his first form was half strong with only 265,000 of pdl so base Raditz PL is probably around 120,000 and 260,000, so Bardock with only 90,000 would squash Raditz with his 50x Super Saiyan boost(4,5 million) and of course he was not a newbie Super Saiyan and could increase his power even more beyond androids level but still not enough to beat Cold. So my guess: base Bardock: 90,000 or less Raditz: ~200,000 Super Saiyan Bardock: 4,500,000 or less (suppressed) Great Ape Raditz: 2,000,000 Plus, I'm not sure, but I think Salagir consider Frieza 100% with only 12 million instead of the 120 million we know is the case, I noticed that might be the case reading the last special of U8, so base Goku on Namek for DBM after his last zenkai was only 300,000 and with the SSJ boost 15 million so by DBM PL standards Raditz on his base is a pretty strong Saiyan, already nearing the ceiling of the base Saiyan potential, almost as strong as Vegeta and Goku were back on Namek at their best.
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Post by Gogeta on Sept 12, 2017 4:43:32 GMT
There is no chance Base Bardock is merely Ginyu level based on his performance vs. Kold. If his base was Ginyu level he'd have been slaughtered by the 17/18 Level Kold but instead he kept up with Kold at that level (Kold had the edge but not a decisive one) and forced Kold to power up to 100% (16 Level) to beat him and even then he still got a few decent blows in. And there's the fact that Bardock was close to unlocking USSJ/SSJ2 in the novel too which implies IMO he's around Android level in SSJ. Barodck hadn't even powered up when an enraged Raditz made his boast (we know from the novel he'd learn to conceal his PL) and upon powering up Raditz confidence got shot. Yeah Raditz got some decent hits in but nothing truly serious and IMO Bardock was holding back because Raditz is his son (no matter how much he may try to deny it) until the visions occurred and Bardock got tired of playing around to which he promptly ended the fight. That aside I agree that the Ghost U3 Saiyans HAVE to be far more powerful than what the chart states. There is no way the likes of Bardock, Vegeta and Broly made massive PL gains while the other Saiyans just remained stagnant. I'd say Ginyu level to first form Frieza is a good estimate for the base U3 Elite Saiyans (Hanasia, Gerkin). His base power is around Ginyu's level, not his Super Saiyan power, I know this doesn't make much sense but that might be the case otherwise Raditz would feel Bardock's power or that he was still hiding a lot of it(base power) and would never brag about being capable of squash him easily since he "compared" Bardock's power with the Ginyus' powers at that moment. Plus, considering that, base Raditz is still not even beyond Frieza most suppressed form(1st form) so he is probably barely above Ginyu even with all his training(poor Raditz lol) and considering the last special of U8 Salagir nerfed Frieza's powers, maybe his first form was half strong with only 265,000 of pdl so base Raditz PL is probably around 120,000 and 260,000, so Bardock with only 90,000 would squash Raditz with his 50x Super Saiyan boost(4,5 million) and of course he was not a newbie Super Saiyan and could increase his power even more beyond androids level but still not enough to beat Cold. So my guess: base Bardock: 90,000 or less Raditz: ~200,000 Super Saiyan Bardock: 4,500,000 or less (suppressed) Great Ape Raditz: 2,000,000 Plus, I'm not sure, but I think Salagir consider Frieza 100% with only 12 million instead of the 120 million we know is the case, I noticed that might be the case reading the last special of U8, so base Goku on Namek for DBM after his last zenkai was only 300,000 and with the SSJ boost 15 million so by DBM PL standards Raditz on his base is a pretty strong Saiyan, already nearing the ceiling of the base Saiyan potential, almost as strong as Vegeta and Goku were back on Namek at their best. Salagrir does not consider Frieza 12 Million. His words are "I used to like to think that 530,000 wasn't first form Freeza's level, but his final one ( Yes, I KNOW it's not the case. I know that is 2nd form is one million)." If his second form is 1 Million and we know he was about at 1% when initially fighting Goku in his original form baFed on Frieza's statement, then the very minimum his PL on Namek could be is 100 Million. And that's massive lowballing. He's a 120 Million possibly higher due to training to master his Original Form. Once again Raditz made his boast while Bardock, who had learnt to conceal his energy and was doing so at the tournament to hide from Raichi, had not even powered up. If Bardock's base is Ginyu level he would have died in 1 hit to a serious Kold plain and simple. Raditz was bragging about being able to beat a suppressed base Bardock because Bardock provoked him into a fit and was concealing his energy. As for base Raditz we have no idea where his PL lies only that it was higher than the Ginyu's (he made his boast while underestimating Bardock and he had no plans of going Oozaru until Barodck stopped concealing his power and showed him SSJ).
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Post by fooshin on Sept 12, 2017 5:19:27 GMT
Had a chance to read everybody's so ll try not to repeat much. First off this is a pl list meaning what a scouter would read. Things like stone spit and crazy regeneration would not br detected and therfore don't count. If this were a who could beat who list then yeah but otherwise I would define it solely off of speed, strength and duribility (how strong of a hit can you take before showing damage) Also before I begin, only ones i can think of that are real anf in the comic not listed are the dragon armed creature in xxi's apartment and ginyu bra. Ginyu is special for some reason because at level 2 he/she was supposedly on par with vegetto's level 2 even though not at level 1 to 1 which i still dont understand but whatevas. So I agree with most that vegetto and gogeta are essentially the same. Only thing i can add is that although goku and vegeta ptobably trained harder, it is shown that once taken to that high of a pl and with the combined mentality there comes with it savant skills. Vegetto has decades of time to work on these highe level skills that the noob gogeta would not have. All fooling around aside, zen buu and uograded gotenks fought on par when they were trading blows and therefore are the same level. Kid gotenks was a little bit weaker than mystic, maybe 20%. As an adult he is a bit stronger and therefore i would guess the same. Gast traded blows with ssj3 vegeta equally and therefore should be exactly the same pl. Nothing indicates otherwise. Hatch had a super attack and a super weakness. Gast one shotted him but it was at that weakness. I woulf put them at the same but as above thats ssj3 vegeta level only. Majin cell jrs prob ssj3 level - maybe on the low side. I dont think his jrs are 2 whole tiers below himself normally. For some reason i thought hildy was even weaker... maybe it was because krillin survived too long against him otherwise. Also i thought east kiao was higher in that he seemed to survive too well against buu to be that weak. Uub maxed and fat buu are too close to have a > seperation between them. Yes he did a huge attack against buu but just judging off of basic strength, he wasnt able to contain him in the shell for more than 30 seconds so that's not a very long time to hold someone you're significantly stonger than. Agree that goku only said about bra level to level. She can only do level 2 at best and goku can go 3 or beyond so... (and no im not implying his level 3 or 4 comes close to her 2 Raichi isnt necessarily that weak. He seemed to survive the gravity just fine even off his ball. If youre giving credit for ultra armor then whatever implants he possesses might also give him cyborg level strengths. Hard to say. Freeza and cooler form to form are the same but either way theyre to close for a > seperation. Freeza is a bit more gifted but cooler is a bit older and age and strength correlate. In the flash back it us stated they are identical form to form. No statements from the author can contradict the manga. - saliger When figuring north slicing up 4th cold... well that was the real cold who had no control and was also younger by some amount and therefore even weaker than the ginyu cold in the tourney. Couple things i thought of reading this thread: What happened to popo in u3??? And will it be dabura that walks into u9 apartments. Can they hold him off of the ritual?
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Post by Gogeta on Sept 12, 2017 5:58:11 GMT
Had a chance to read everybody's so ll try not to repeat much. First off this is a pl list meaning what a scouter would read. Things like stone spit and crazy regeneration would not br detected and therfore don't count. If this were a who could beat who list then yeah but otherwise I would define it solely off of speed, strength and duribility (how strong of a hit can you take before showing damage) Also before I begin, only ones i can think of that are real anf in the comic not listed are the dragon armed creature in xxi's apartment and ginyu bra. Ginyu is special for some reason because at level 2 he/she was supposedly on par with vegetto's level 2 even though not at level 1 to 1 which i still dont understand but whatevas. So I agree with most that vegetto and gogeta are essentially the same. Only thing i can add is that although goku and vegeta ptobably trained harder, it is shown that once taken to that high of a pl and with the combined mentality there comes with it savant skills. Vegetto has decades of time to work on these highe level skills that the noob gogeta would not have. All fooling around aside, zen buu and uograded gotenks fought on par when they were trading blows and therefore are the same level. Kid gotenks was a little bit weaker than mystic, maybe 20%. As an adult he is a bit stronger and therefore i would guess the same. Gast traded blows with ssj3 vegeta equally and therefore should be exactly the same pl. Nothing indicates otherwise. Hatch had a super attack and a super weakness. Gast one shotted him but it was at that weakness. I woulf put them at the same but as above thats ssj3 vegeta level only. Majin cell jrs prob ssj3 level - maybe on the low side. I dont think his jrs are 2 whole tiers below himself normally. For some reason i thought hildy was even weaker... maybe it was because krillin survived too long against him otherwise. Also i thought east kiao was higher in that he seemed to survive too well against buu to be that weak. Uub maxed and fat buu are too close to have a > seperation between them. Yes he did a huge attack against buu but just judging off of basic strength, he wasnt able to contain him in the shell for more than 30 seconds so that's not a very long time to hold someone you're significantly stonger than. Agree that goku only said about bra level to level. She can only do level 2 at best and goku can go 3 or beyond so... (and no im not implying his level 3 or 4 comes close to her 2 Raichi isnt necessarily that weak. He seemed to survive the gravity just fine even off his ball. If youre giving credit for ultra armor then whatever implants he possesses might also give him cyborg level strengths. Hard to say. Freeza and cooler form to form are the same but either way theyre to close for a > seperation. Freeza is a bit more gifted but cooler is a bit older and age and strength correlate. In the flash back it us stated they are identical form to form. No statements from the author can contradict the manga. - saliger When figuring north slicing up 4th cold... well that was the real cold who had no control and was also younger by some amount and therefore even weaker than the ginyu cold in the tourney. Couple things i thought of reading this thread: What happened to popo in u3??? And will it be dabura that walks into u9 apartments. Can they hold him off of the ritual? Zen Buu was fucking around with Gotenks the entire time. Yes SSJ3 Gotenks was powerful enough to keep up with Buu it was made obvious Buu wasn't being the least bit serious at all so I wouldn't put them in the same tier. He's still yet to actually use a Ki attack in the tournament. If Buu is SSJ2 Vegito Level raw power wise then I'd put Upgraded SSJ3 Gotenks in between SSJ and SSJ2 Vegito. Buu being serious would still have overpowered Gotenks IMO. Gast traded blows with SSJ3 Vegeta and then outsped Vegeta's other attack only for Broly to come in and end that 1v1. Plus with Asura's comments about Gast not having an aura and then Gast having a power up aura once he charged up the attack that beat Hatch I'm going to say IMO Gast and Hatch are just slightly below Mystic Gohan level at full power but still above SSJ3 Vegeta levels of power. The flashback had Frieza claiming they were equal but keep in mind that's from Frieza's POV. Of course he'd make a claim like that if they were closely enough matched to undermine Cooler. He also couldn't sense Ki/Energy at the time so any estimations on PL from him should be taken with caution. Plus that was Centuries ago. And we know Cooler kept rigorously training while Frieza didn't train as hard until the Goku incident in U8. I'd say Cooler has a more distinct edge in equivalent forms than you are giving him credit for. Though I will agree on Frieza having more potential but Cooler making up for that via harder training and superior experience. I wouldn't put much stock in Raichi's strength. Its a Ghost from when he died and he died as a Tuffle scientist. He still struggled with the 100x gravity which is about 10x the gravity he'd be used to (similar to Tapion). Other than that I agree with what you said.
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Post by Rafael on Sept 12, 2017 13:58:39 GMT
His base power is around Ginyu's level, not his Super Saiyan power, I know this doesn't make much sense but that might be the case otherwise Raditz would feel Bardock's power or that he was still hiding a lot of it(base power) and would never brag about being capable of squash him easily since he "compared" Bardock's power with the Ginyus' powers at that moment. Plus, considering that, base Raditz is still not even beyond Frieza most suppressed form(1st form) so he is probably barely above Ginyu even with all his training(poor Raditz lol) and considering the last special of U8 Salagir nerfed Frieza's powers, maybe his first form was half strong with only 265,000 of pdl so base Raditz PL is probably around 120,000 and 260,000, so Bardock with only 90,000 would squash Raditz with his 50x Super Saiyan boost(4,5 million) and of course he was not a newbie Super Saiyan and could increase his power even more beyond androids level but still not enough to beat Cold. So my guess: base Bardock: 90,000 or less Raditz: ~200,000 Super Saiyan Bardock: 4,500,000 or less (suppressed) Great Ape Raditz: 2,000,000 Plus, I'm not sure, but I think Salagir consider Frieza 100% with only 12 million instead of the 120 million we know is the case, I noticed that might be the case reading the last special of U8, so base Goku on Namek for DBM after his last zenkai was only 300,000 and with the SSJ boost 15 million so by DBM PL standards Raditz on his base is a pretty strong Saiyan, already nearing the ceiling of the base Saiyan potential, almost as strong as Vegeta and Goku were back on Namek at their best. Salagrir does not consider Frieza 12 Million. His words are "I used to like to think that 530,000 wasn't first form Freeza's level, but his final one ( Yes, I KNOW it's not the case. I know that is 2nd form is one million)." If his second form is 1 Million and we know he was about at 1% when initially fighting Goku in his original form baFed on Frieza's statement, then the very minimum his PL on Namek could be is 100 Million. And that's massive lowballing. He's a 120 Million possibly higher due to training to master his Original Form. Once again Raditz made his boast while Bardock, who had learnt to conceal his energy and was doing so at the tournament to hide from Raichi, had not even powered up. If Bardock's base is Ginyu level he would have died in 1 hit to a serious Kold plain and simple. Raditz was bragging about being able to beat a suppressed base Bardock because Bardock provoked him into a fit and was concealing his energy. As for base Raditz we have no idea where his PL lies only that it was higher than the Ginyu's (he made his boast while underestimating Bardock and he had no plans of going Oozaru until Barodck stopped concealing his power and showed him SSJ). Salagrir does not consider Frieza 12 Million.Then U8 special fight doesn't make any sense to me, by omitting power levels Salagir is actually creating even more confusion. Once again Raditz made his boast while Bardock, who had learnt to conceal his energy and was doing so at the tournament to hide from Raichi, had not even powered up.Yes, Bardock learnt how to control his own ki and was hiding it, down to ZERO, so Raichi's probes couldn't find him, U13 Raditz know how to sense ki for decades, more than enough time for him to master the ability, he would instantly see that Bardock, even in base, was concealing way more power thus he wouldn't feel the need to boast or he would say that now he has the power to challenge even Frieza in his original form or something like that considering that he now has millions in PL. If Bardock's base is Ginyu level he would have died in 1 hit to a serious Kold plain and simple.No, he wouldn't if the author considers base power and Super Saiyan power not THAT related to each other, his Super Saiyan could boost his powers tremendously. As for base Raditz we have no idea where his PL lies only that it was higher than the Ginyu's (he made his boast while underestimating Bardock and he had no plans of going Oozaru until Barodck stopped concealing his power and showed him SSJ).If Raditz really wanted to impress Bardock he would boast of being capable of putting a fight against Frieza himself nowadays, not about him being capable of crush the Ginyus easily, plus Bardock is a Super Saiyan so following your trail of thought his base should be more than enough to deal with an ordinary Saiyan like Raditz even with all his training, considering that being a Super Saiyan unlocks even more base power.
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Post by Andres on Sept 12, 2017 15:01:47 GMT
mbg Everybody thinks Piccolo is weaker, I will move him to the botton of Basic SSJ tier. I won't add Frieza 4th form, because he is already there in 5th form... but you are right he would be above the broken androids. I remember reading, probably in the novel, that Piccolo kept training, and while he could probably beat a Cell Jr, he wasn't as powerful as Perfect Cell. Let me find it.
So I guess he's between Cell Games and SSj2 Tier.
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Post by Gogeta on Sept 12, 2017 15:23:08 GMT
Salagrir does not consider Frieza 12 Million.Then U8 special fight doesn't make any sense to me, by omitting power levels Salagir is actually creating even more confusion. Once again Raditz made his boast while Bardock, who had learnt to conceal his energy and was doing so at the tournament to hide from Raichi, had not even powered up.How? Goku was able to stomp Recoome and co. with little effort (took Nail who was at 42k considerably more effort) and it was only Ginyu powering up to full power that prompted him to start using KK. Granted I belive Goku and Ginyu are at similar PLs and due to his mindset of wanting to find Frieza Goku just didn't want to have a long drawn out fight. This implies Ginyu at 120k >= Goku > Rest of Ginyus (around 50 to 60k). So even if Goku is around 120k at an even estimate his KK x10 would be around 1,200,000 which should stronger than all of Frieza's restriction forms but equal than 1% Frieza (1.2 Million). Which is consistent with Goku pushing Frieza to his final form with KK then getting wiped out once Frieza overwhelmed him. Yes, Bardock learnt how to control his own ki and was hiding it, down to ZERO, so Raichi's probes couldn't find him, U13 Raditz know how to sense ki for decades, more than enough time for him to master the ability, he would instantly see that Bardock, even in base, was concealing way more power thus he wouldn't feel the need to boast or he would say that now he has the power to challenge even Frieza in his original form or something like that considering that he now has millions in PL. "Raditz could boast. In his universe, like many others, the last Saiyan's, driven by his brother, had become thousands of times more powerful than what was considered as an elite. His father, who had pushed himself for his whole life to reach the average of the elite, was pathetic in comparison." " Raditz was disappointed. He wanted to humiliate him as the little girl did to the other Baddack. He hadn't thought that this old man could be achieve that state, and what pushed him to it? He was too stupid to achieve the state of Super Saiyan, he was persuaded. Was this Baddack so much different from the rest?" Except Raditz, due to a combination of bluster, pride and a need to overcompensate in front of his father compares himself to the Bardock in his own universe. He's comparing his power and advancement to that of his father (U3 Bardock isn't U13 Bardock) but coming from the point of reference that all Universe Bardock's are similar in order to invalidate Bardock's progression based on what he knew about his father. Then once Bardock throws all that back in his face he realizes that his comparisons were off. Raditz also didn't say that he could challenge Frieza because he knows his Oozaru PL would still lose to Frieza (Low Millions x 10 is Low Tens of Millions which is still less than 120 Million) If Bardock's base is Ginyu level he would have died in 1 hit to a serious Kold plain and simple.No, he wouldn't if the author considers base power and Super Saiyan power not THAT related to each other, his Super Saiyan could boost his powers tremendously. And nowhere in DBM has Salagrir considered Base power unrelated or not that related to Super Saiyan power. "I believe SSJ isn't just a mere multiplier but more of a big step" "Cold being much stronger than his son, just being SSJ1 isn't enough to beat him. Of course, between SSJ1 and SSJ2, there are many power levels, many being able to beat the other easily, as shown in Cell's saga." He considers SSJ be something more than a multiplier. A means to achieve a whole new tier of power. However within that new tier of power there are limits and various levels and so to get stronger within said tier one has to train themselves up (increasing base power which increases SSJ power, making gains in SSJ which reflect back onto base either way stronger base = stronger SSJ and your power in SSJ is reflective on how strong your base is). If Bardock's base is Ginyu level he would have died in 1 hit to a serious Kold plain and simple.As for base Raditz we have no idea where his PL lies only that it was higher than the Ginyu's (he made his boast while underestimating Bardock and he had no plans of going Oozaru until Barodck stopped concealing his power and showed him SSJ).
If Raditz really wanted to impress Bardock he would boast of being capable of putting a fight against Frieza himself nowadays, not about him being capable of crush the Ginyus easily, plus Bardock is a Super Saiyan so following your trail of thought his base should be more than enough to deal with an ordinary Saiyan like Raditz even with all his training, considering that being a Super Saiyan unlocks even more base power. Bardock's base power probably was enough to deal with Raditz (in base at the very least. He might have struggled with Oozaru Raditz). Frankly I think the only reason he went SSJ was because Raditz was getting all uppity and he wanted to teach him a lesson. Even in the fight itself Bardock was not taking Raditz seriously and it was due to that underestimation and casualness that Raditz could "take advantage of his element of surprise." And then the visions went into play which completely neutralized Bardock for a bit of time. Then Bardock recovered, got serious and promptly ended the fight. Plus Goku says: "Without a shadow of a doubt, one was at least two hundred times stronger than the other." (200 times 10,000 means Bardock is AT LEAST 2,000,000) Now you could argue that Goku was talking about Bardock in SSJ but that would clash with what Salagrir says about the SSJ1 form which is "In the same road, this makes SSJ1 a minimum power level, that is a little above 'final Freeza'" so if you subscribe to the 12 Million theory that's just off and if you subscribe to the 120 Million theory then that's plausible assuming Bardock was holding back against Raditz which I believe he was due to Raditz being his son and all. Also just the fact that Salagrir believes a Saiyan (barring fusions because they are special) has to be around a minimum range of power to achieve a transformation and Bardock in a rage had blue SSJ2 sparks in his aura indicates Bardock is close to, if not at, that minimum range of power to unlock SSJ2. He just needs a sufficient trigger. No way a base around Ginyu level is at that range.
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Post by Gogeta on Sept 12, 2017 15:26:27 GMT
mbg Everybody thinks Piccolo is weaker, I will move him to the botton of Basic SSJ tier. I won't add Frieza 4th form, because he is already there in 5th form... but you are right he would be above the broken androids. I remember reading, probably in the novel, that Piccolo kept training, and while he could probably beat a Cell Jr, he wasn't as powerful as Perfect Cell. Let me find it.
So I guess he's between Cell Games and SSj2 Tier. Chapter 68: "Son Goku approached him. 'Tell me, Piccolo: if Cell is at the same level as we knew, his Junior is probably at the same level too. Could you beat him today?' 'I have made much progress since then, hoping to reach Cell’s level...but without success. But I think I would be able to beat out a mere Junior."'
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