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Post by fooshin on Sept 12, 2017 15:43:47 GMT
Zen Buu was fucking around with Gotenks the entire time. ahh.. but gotenks was fucking around with zen buu the entire time... even buu acknowledged this at the end when he states "Gotenks is very powerful, but isn't serious at all..." It's always a pain to argue strengths when the, "yeah, but he was faking it" thing comes up. During the first fusion they fought almost entirely just fist to face (only one quick energy attack). It was close but gotenks seemed to have the edge before his split. The second round was just pointless so forget that. Also to add to this when buu charged up, Gotenks (who knows how to read pl just fine) is asked by buu if he's ready and he then charges up and says, "YOU BET!" Yes, the aura thing... that's possible but that's not strong enough for me without seeing a bit more. The main thing is that Gast is looking for a challenge, not just quick wins. He was soundly defeated by the 2 fighters and had to do the sneaky shit to win. That's not what you do when you got more to give. Freeza didn't need to sense PL. He actually fought his brother and they were equal. They both admitted it. Frost demons unlock new forms with training, they don't get stronger. The strength increases with age only. The evidence for this is Cooler's statement about the length of time it would take for him to pass his father... 300 or 400 years. Presumably that's the time it would take for him to get close enough that his fifth form would then surpass his father's fourth. Yeah, I'm not at all sure on this one.
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Post by Gogeta on Sept 12, 2017 16:19:35 GMT
Zen Buu was fucking around with Gotenks the entire time. ahh.. but gotenks was fucking around with zen buu the entire time... even buu acknowledged this at the end when he states "Gotenks is very powerful, but isn't serious at all..." It's always a pain to argue strengths when the, "yeah, but he was faking it" thing comes up. During the first fusion they fought almost entirely just fist to face (only one quick energy attack). It was close but gotenks seemed to have the edge before his split. The second round was just pointless so forget that. Also to add to this when buu charged up, Gotenks (who knows how to read pl just fine) is asked by buu if he's ready and he then charges up and says, "YOU BET!" Buu was discussing Gotenks's attitude in general not his mindset for the fight. Gotenks was very much trying his hardest. The novel has both Goten and Trunks stating one way or another they'd have to go all out in order to find a way to beat Buu. Thing is Gotenks came in with the mindset that he has to beat Buu but his general attitude is still one of a braggart and showoff. And in the end Buu just got bored of that and started dicking around with the Ultra Armor. Also wouldn't say Gotenks had the edge first fight either. He tries to go for a sneak attack punch from above, Buu blocks it, completely tanks Gotenks's mouth beam then they trade fists for a bit Buu gets hit back then Gotenks gets defused. Then once they refused back Buu states "Good, its getting interesting." Those aren't the words of someone who was going all out. And then he uses the Ultra and basically toys with Gotenks and uses him as a test for the armor with it, with Gotenks even stating that Buu's own attacks are stronger. Buu had time to basically carve a statue of himself with the Energy Blade and only got caught off guard by Gotenks once the Ultra ran out of power. Buu's final words from that quote were "no point in making this last." He controlled the fight from the get go and could have ended it whenever he wanted. After he had his fun he was done. Yes, the aura thing... that's possible but that's not strong enough for me without seeing a bit more. The main thing is that Gast is looking for a challenge, not just quick wins. He was soundly defeated by the 2 fighters and had to do the sneaky shit to win. That's not what you do when you got more to give. He was defeated by the two fighters. Not Vegeta individually but by Vegeta and Broly. As soon as Broly showed up he was given little time to actually compose himself. If it wasn't trying to content with the LSSJ it was SSJ3 Vegeta pressuring him from the sides. That combination would beat pretty much anypne below SSJ Vegito tier. My logic for this if far better explained in Andres post hereFreeza didn't need to sense PL. He actually fought his brother and they were equal. They both admitted it. Frost demons unlock new forms with training, they don't get stronger. The strength increases with age only. The evidence for this is Cooler's statement about the length of time it would take for him to pass his father... 300 or 400 years. Presumably that's the time it would take for him to get close enough that his fifth form would then surpass his father's fourth. Frieza claimed they were equal but Cooler neither backed up nor refuted said claim (in fact he calls Frieza an idiot). You can be within the same tier of power as someone and have an even fight with them and if you or both of you can't sense energy you could misconstrue said even fight for complete parity despite any slight power differences existing between the two. Frost Demons do get stronger with age yes but to claim they don't also get stronger via training makes no sense to me. Plus if Cooler was waiting for 300 to 400 years for his power to increase enough for his Augmented Form to challenge Kold wouldn't Kold's OG form's power also increase during that same time? He'd surely have to augment his natural power increase with training to surpass Kold's natural power increase. Plus Word of God states Kold>>Cooler>Frieza in every equivalent form so there's that.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 12, 2017 22:46:46 GMT
Buu was discussing Gotenks's attitude in general not his mindset for the fight. Gotenks was very much trying his hardest. The novel has both Goten and Trunks stating one way or another they'd have to go all out in order to find a way to beat Buu. Thing is Gotenks came in with the mindset that he has to beat Buu but his general attitude is still one of a braggart and showoff. And in the end Buu just got bored of that and started dicking around with the Ultra Armor. Also wouldn't say Gotenks had the edge first fight either. He tries to go for a sneak attack punch from above, Buu blocks it, completely tanks Gotenks's mouth beam then they trade fists for a bit Buu gets hit back then Gotenks gets defused. Then once they refused back Buu states "Good, its getting interesting." Those aren't the words of someone who was going all out. And then he uses the Ultra and basically toys with Gotenks and uses him as a test for the armor with it, with Gotenks even stating that Buu's own attacks are stronger. Buu had time to basically carve a statue of himself with the Energy Blade and only got caught off guard by Gotenks once the Ultra ran out of power. What I take from he's very powerful but not serious at all is that if Goku or Vegeta or trunk's brain were transferred into Gotenk's body then Buu might have got his ass whooped. Not because of their techniques, but simply because his PL is "very powerful" and at least on par with Buu's. A fighter with a serious attitude (ie. not fucking around) and that PL would be a threat to him. Once again this is a PL only thread and that's what I'm pointing out. I think what you're mistaken on is Buu's facial expressions as meaning he's bored and holding back. I don't see that. What I see is someone who has nothing to fear. He knows gotenks cannot kill him (even if he could he has other pieces), it's unlikely he could win especially with his still fatal time limit flaw. And he can't really be hurt by someone at his own PL (it requires someone significantly stronger to truly hurt and or kill him). All in all I'm just saying they're definitely close and absolutely in the same tier. That's a nice way to spin it. Here's mine: Buu couldn't land a single hit on Gotenks (fact). Buu did zero damage to Gotenks (fact). Buu won because of the carbonite, not his PL (fact). Gotenks speed surprised buu twice (fact). Gotenks landed blows on buu and delivered a killing blow(s) if you took away his magical regen. (fact) Gotenks sized up buu's pl and was extremely confident he could at the very least fight him on his level, "YOU BET!" (fact) All that equals same tier, no one a whole tier below could do these things. Yes, gast was defeated by 2 fighters but that's irrelevant. When he fought just Vegeta they were dead equal. The artist made that clear with matching blows and damage. And sorry but I can't buy that only ssj vegetto level would survive the combo. Mystic Gohan is far, far stronger than ssj3 Goku(dbz). This is also the shared opinon of dbm's author so it's kinda inarguable here. There's no way that kid gotenks ssj3 or mystic Gohan wouldn't have been able to handle that easily assuming they didn't let broly get any stronger. He only called him an idiot because he believed he could beat him in a higher form that freeza couldn't maintain. He says this clearly on that page. He didn't say Idiot! I'm just going easy on you in this form cause you my baby bro. The fact that he said what he said is an acknowledgement that freeza was right. They both agreed. Once again the artist showed equal damage after what was probably a long battle. This and the dialog together mean equal. Even if one was slightly stonger that wouldn't merit the ">" difference within the tier. If you could get stronger through training then it wouldn't take 300 to 400 years to surpass someone. So how can he surpass if they're both increasing equally? Well, one take is that they're not immortal. It's entirely possible that at a certain point Kold's power gaining would slow or even decline with age but that's not certain. What is certain is that transformations are almost always multipliers in DBZ. If Cooler's pl was 100 mil and his augmentation gave him a 2x boost then he would be 200 mil but his father is 400 mil. Every 100 years they gain 100 mil equally. In 400 years Cooler is now 500 mil and his father is 900 mil. He augments to 1 billion and crushes his father... see? And yes I pulled all these numbers out of my ass just to explain so pretty please no one correct me on the specifics.[/quote]
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Post by Argelios on Sept 12, 2017 23:43:29 GMT
lordofbeefdip I still don't think Gogeta would be equal to Vegetto in the same form, you are right about one thing, Goku and Vegeta were way stronger than their sons, that's a fact but still Vegetto and Gotenks difference is abysmal. Vegetto base is equal to Gotenks SSJ3!! If the fusions were the same that would mean Goku base would be equal to "Goten SSJ3". I know Goku and Vegeta were stronger, but not to that level. That already proves Potara is stronger than Metamoru, by far.
Still, with Vegeta's "new form" and maybe the "fusion secrets" from Gotenks, Gogeta surely can reach Level 10, along with Vegetto SSJ3. fooshin I have to go with Gogeta here, about Gast and Gotenks. I don't want to get into your debate, still... -About Gast: Asura already teased Gast being stronger, with the "aura" thing. And also he crushed Hatchiyack in 1 hit. Sure, with what we've seen we can just say he is equal to a SSJ3, but Asura's "hint" is enough for me to believe Gast is stronger. -About Gotenks: Again, the facts you mention in your last post, although all of them are "true" , they can be explained with "Buu was chillin lol". There's no proof Buu was using his maximun, on the contrary the character's nature through all the story says otherwise. Now, aside from that: -Ginyu Bra: same power lvl than normal Bra, but Ginyu could master SSJ2. -XXI/Dragon: Lets wait and see more. -Hatchiyack: Yes.. maybe equal to Gast, maybe stronger, we can't know. -East Kai: Could be, east kai power lvl was always hard to know. Hope we can see more in the Babidi plot. -Uub: Can't agree, Uub (maximun Kaioken) was way stronger than Buu, if you are equal to Buu you can't turn him into dust, and he did. -Others Kais: Again, we just know they are way stronger than east Kai, hope we see more of them. -Majin Cell Jrs: You are right, that's already done (next update) Also, this list can't count things such as duribility, because Hildegarn would be Level 11 haha Andres Misunderstanding haha, I meant King Piccolo, he is going to the botton of Basic SSJ. Piccolo Jr is exactly where you say he should be.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 13, 2017 1:31:48 GMT
fooshin I have to go with Gogeta here, about Gast and Gotenks. I don't want to get into your debate, still... -About Gast: Asura already teased Gast being stronger, with the "aura" thing. And also he crushed Hatchiyack in 1 hit. Sure, with what we've seen we can just say he is equal to a SSJ3, but Asura's "hint" is enough for me to believe Gast is stronger. Like I said, the aura thing from the artist (not the author) is a possibility but I think my reasoning in my last point is stronger than that hint. Guess we'll see. I don't exactly have the best track record on the predictions thread Again, super pain when people pull the faking card in a strength argument. It's not like I can win against that kind of rational. My guess is krillin will be the hero of the majin takeover once he reveals this whole time that old kai made him mystic years ago and his potential is far beyond vegettos. He was just holding back the whole time waiting for a true emergency like the hero he is... ugghhh. Yes, but can you explain why his/her ssj1 was not mastered to vegetto's level??? This one is a big wtf to me. agreed, but clearly stronger than santa buu for whatever that means. agreed what I want to know is why are all the other kai's alive? I thought the lifespan of the kai's was only around as long as it's been since buu was first born and sealed. I thought east kai was a baby kai and the rest would be dead by now... maybe I read something wrong hmm... I thought many people have damaged buu... I think dabura put a big hole in his chest, some human shot him and the bullets went thru like butter. I think Vegeta who was merely ssj2 completely vaporized buu. Buu's a real special case when it comes to durability. I wouldn't put much stock into uub's effort in that department. The real test was him trying to contain him. He was in a position of advantage, having him contained in his magic bowls and with all of his might at his max he finally gave up at 30 seconds. Buu came out ready to stomp. EDIT: Also keep in mind that big charged up energy attacks always do way more damage than what any normal feat of strength can do. Super vegeta took a big chunk out of perfect cell and he was far superior to vegeta. North and west fought buu back in the day and lost. East fought fat and lost. Not sure where the difference makes their pl's clear. I imagine back in the day they were stronger than him at the time but a lot of time has passed. They might be the same now??? Yes, that's why I posted the disclaimer at the beginning of my first post that "things like stone spit and crazy regen don't count... towards pl" That obviously includes magical invulnerability. What I mean is for "normal" fighters, when speed and strength aren't always enough to determine pl, we often are able to determine it off of their ability to tank hits or just how much damage they show afterwards. Hope that helps. [/quote][/quote]
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 13, 2017 3:38:16 GMT
What I take from he's very powerful but not serious at all is that if Goku or Vegeta or trunk's brain were transferred into Gotenk's body then Buu might have got his ass whooped. Not because of their techniques, but simply because his PL is "very powerful" and at least on par with Buu's. A fighter with a serious attitude (ie. not fucking around) and that PL would be a threat to him. Once again this is a PL only thread and that's what I'm pointing out. I think what you're mistaken on is Buu's facial expressions as meaning he's bored and holding back. I don't see that. What I see is someone who has nothing to fear. He knows gotenks cannot kill him (even if he could he has other pieces), it's unlikely he could win especially with his still fatal time limit flaw. And he can't really be hurt by someone at his own PL (it requires someone significantly stronger to truly hurt and or kill him). All in all I'm just saying they're definitely close and absolutely in the same tier. For this "they are on the same tier" thing, you have to assume Buu used his full power. He did not. Buu was taunting and making fun of Gotenks the whole time too. He wasn't taking the fight much more seriously than Gotenks. I am sure he would have been more frantic and serious if fighting Gogeta, even at the PL of Gotenks. Unless such opponent in question powered a tier (or two or three) down for doing so. Sorry but gotta spin it again: -Buu did not use any single attack of his own on Gotenks (not even against Vegetto/bra/gohan) FACT -Gotenks never landed a killing blow (wtf? when did it look Buu was gonna be killed or seriously hurt?) FACT -Buu did not use full power against Gotenks. In fact, he was the only person whom he powered up against slightly (no veins and straining) FACT -Buu was only toying with Gotenks (which is why he tested an armor weaker than himself, whom he had no previous experience with to toy him around) FACT -Buu was literally pointing at Gotenks while laughing FACT -It was thanks to Buu Gotenks got this strong FACT -Base Gotenks also thought in Buu saga, he could beat Buu, yet he did not FACT -Buu was doing advanced geometry sculptures while toying Gotenks FACT -Buu deliberately let them try their new, different dance steps a couple of times -The only blow Gotenks landed was a headbutt. The other one(s) where he got carbonite'd was a sucker punch when Buu was distracted due to the armor battery running off. FACT. -It will be hard to do a proper rebuttal after this, FACT.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 13, 2017 6:24:16 GMT
For this "they are on the same tier" thing, you have to assume Buu used his full power. He did not. Buu was taunting and making fun of Gotenks the whole time too. He wasn't taking the fight much more seriously than Gotenks. I am sure he would have been more frantic and serious if fighting Gogeta, even at the PL of Gotenks. I assume what I'm given. You assume what might be there. See the difference? Like I said, buu can't really be defeated by someone with the same power level, especially when they have a huge time limit liability. He's confident he can't lose or be harmed due to a mistake so he has his fun. That says ZERO about him holding back. Wow, 3? Just how strong can this big faker be? ok? And gotenks was doing donuts tm and kamikaze ghosts and anything else he came up with in last decade or two? Apples to apples [Your's = irrelevant fact] Think it was when gotenks pulverized him into buu burger. If you noticed the finer detail of my sentence I specifically said take away his regen, this is a pl comparison, not extra ability comparison. Granted buu's durability is a special case... he might have just looked like bra after cold had his way with her after that bombardment. [your fact incorrect] umm... no, buu has veins popping out on his chest and arms when he powers up. Gotenks does not. So by your own logic it was gotenks that was the one holding back. [otherwise, not a fact, no evidence, no proof, just your opinon, guess, hunch, desire that he has so much more he hasn't shown yet, sorry] Yes, that's an actual fact. But that only applies to round 2 which as I said was mostly irrelevant as a good pl comparison [so yeah that's a fact that proves nothing] yeah, the carbonite got him, and he was being an idiot about how he handled it spreading it around his body. That's pretty funny but has ZERO to do with buu or Gotenk's PL so [irrelevant fact] Yes, another indisputable fact. So he created someone on his level to fight to give him a challenge... doesn't hardly help you case [irrelevant fact] And yet he had him on the ropes and just might have pulled it off if it wasn't for his dreaded time limit. Saligir really went for the repeat here. Just as before, super buu and kid gotenks pretty much exact same pl [Fact, and thanks for the assist] --- EDIT: Woah, I just noticed you said "Base" gotenks and so I see your point there... however, that's easily dismissed not in that he wasn't aware of fat buu's strength, but that he had a brand new body and seemingly impossible strength to boot. He was a kid and didn't know his own strength having not had a chance to really try yet. Adult Gotenks is well seasoned and knows his limits and therefore is altogether a different story so yes I see where you're trying to go there but I don't think it's a great one. Yeah, with someone else's toy, but either way gotenks managed just fine and all it did was cost buu a good beating [irrelevant fact again] Of course, I never said Gotenks was stronger than him and a threat that he had to eliminate quickly at all costs. He wanted a good fight and so he made himself one. [irrelevant fact] That's still 2(s) more than buu. [Fact] Well, proper enough? My original facts were all 100% related to judging PL. Yours were not. The fact that buu gave him his power says nothing about it being any particular level. The fact that buu didn't use any special attacks says nothing about his PL... and yes, I'm sure he had techniques that would have helped him win right away if he wanted, but once again, techniques have ZERO to do with PL. The fact that buu was toying with gotenks during the second round doesn't prove in the slightest he was stronger or holding back. Once again, buu has no fear as I explained thoroughly. Why do I think buu isn't holding back? Primarily it's because in the Broly fight, Buu is truly impressed with Vegetto's ssj3, as stated. That pretty much is an acknowledgement that Vegetto is beyond him in that state - "you impress me... really." When Buu powers up against gotenks, Vegetto has his sweat drop. Those two combined together pretty much say it all. Vegetto at ssj3 is tier 10 and unstoppable, but he can only hold it briefly and that's not good enough against someone like buu. That means at ssj2 he's at the same level and buu's pretty hard to beat unless you're much stronger than him which he is not at his ssj2. If buu was as stong as Vegetto's ssj3 he wouldn't have been impressed by something he himself could do or even surpass. And if buu was only ssj1 vegetto he would have never had the sweat drop. It's a pretty neat circle. Also, just to add but remember buu after the bra/cold fight, how giddy he was to surveil u16's techniques? All the more reason to believe he's not stronger than ssj2 Vegetto. If he was than just his PL alone would crush him.
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Post by Solus on Sept 13, 2017 9:27:14 GMT
There is no evidence so far, that proves that Buu is on par with Vegetto SSJ3. Salagir himself stated many years ago in his power tier list, that Buu and Vegetto SSJ2 are in the same tier. So I wouldn't try to change that.
However, when Vegetto fought Broly and Buu didn't know of his SSJ3, Buu was about to "end it [him]self". Which means he was confident to be stronger than Broly who was stronger than Vegetto at that moment. On the other hand it could also mean, that Buu just knows a technique to deal with Broly. There is no real proof for either side. It's very ambigous here.
A little bit later, when Vegetto fought Buu in Space, Buu said, he already knew he could defeat Vegetto in his prime (even after witnessing SSJ3), so there would be no point in fighting him in this damaged state. If there is one person in the tournament, who's judgement can be trusted, then it's the omnipotent Buu. He has absorbed dozens of capable fighters (including Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan), he isn't shown to be blinded by arrogance like Vegeta and Cell and maybe Vegetto to an extent. So if Buu says, he can beat Vegetto SSJ3, that is a fact in my opinion. On the other hand he didn't show any feats to proof this yet. Untill then just leave him at Vegetto SSJ2 tier.
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Post by Argelios on Sept 14, 2017 1:34:28 GMT
Like I said, the aura thing from the artist (not the author) is a possibility but I think my reasoning in my last point is stronger than that hint. Guess we'll see. I don't exactly have the best track record on the predictions thread I don't want to sound rude... but between you and the artist I will go with the artist hahaha. It's not like Asura is going to add "hints" without Salagir's approval. I'm with you here about the faking card.. for example... in Dragon Ball Super to justify the broken power lvls. But here is not only about the faking card. It's about the nature of the character. Zen Buu is written in a way he is always mysterious and doesn't show his true power. Also in that fight he didn't seem worried or made comments to believe Gotenks was equal. Like for example, when he saw Bra in SSJ2 he was surprised and almost erased, but it doesn't mean Bra SSJ2 is equal to him. Actually ... I can. Salagir already stated Vegetto used level 2 and 3 just to show him dominance and make him change. Anyway, back then, Salagir was confused and said Bra SSJ (Not Ginyu) was way way stronger than Mystic Gohan.. we and other users showed him evidence that was not true, and he accepted. SSJ Bra is weaker than Mystic Gohan, while in SSJ2 she is equal to Vegetto SSJ. Ginyu's change technique doesn't increase power. Vegetto SSJ2 Tier or Vegetto SSJ3 I guess, we can't know the mini Buu was at full Zen Buu power, but he seemed surprised. What? hahaha. Kais live millions of years. You can't compare that, Vegeta SSJ2 didn't disintegrate Fat Buu, Uub DISINTEGRATED fat buu, he would have died if it wasn't because Zen Buu taught him to hide parts of him in the ring. And to disintegrate Buu you need to be at least a SSJ3 (Stronger than Buu) You need energy similar to a Earth Genkidama to disintigrate Buu, and Uub did it by his own. Also remeber we talk about Uub with his MAXIMUN Kaioken, he only used it for a few seconds. Kais don't train.
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Post by Argelios on Sept 14, 2017 1:52:28 GMT
Sorry the double post, but what do you think about the new page?
-May West Kai still be at weak SS2? -Should I update the chart soon or wait for more Babidi plot... Tien, Krilin, Kais, King Piccolo, Cell, Raditz.. we will get new power confirmations next pages.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 14, 2017 3:24:24 GMT
I don't want to sound rude... but between you and the artist I will go with the artist hahaha. It's not like Asura is going to add "hints" without Salagir's approval. Not rude at all, I would think that too except recently I learned from Saligir quote thread that the artists take all kinds of liberties and have their own opinions and can't be taken as if saligir said it himself. Like I said, it's still something for sure that the artist hinted something but my rational about Gast looking for a challenge but then having to resort to doing sneaky shit to win suggests mightly that he wasn't holding back, imho. Well I posted about this with khan, but to add more, in my opinion buu in space was held to ssj1 Vegetto. That was enough to handle the heavily depleted vegetto and 2 mystic level fighters especially with his innate ability to multiply and regenerate. When bra went level 2 she merely equaled him and she eliminated the others so there was still no true threat from someone at his same PL with all his advantages. When he powered up against Gotenks he increased to ssj2 Vegetto level. Absolutely nothing else would explain why Vegetto had the sweat drop. If he was only at ssj1 Vegetto levels then there would be no sweat drop from Vegetto. Doesn't that make sense? Sure, he could be still holding back, but nothing suggests it other than that it happens a lot in DB. Perhaps Vegetto is still holding back? He did say "I must show my true power!" while going level 2 only to go even beyond his "true power" a few pages later... anyways, anyone can be holding back but there is one strong piece of evidence to suggest buu is not beyond ssj2 vegetto which is what he must have been against gotenks and that is that when Vegetto went level 3 Buu was truly impressed. You cannot be someone like buu and be impressed by a rival who merely equals you. That was a, wow, you REALLY impressed me moment. Well, that and as solus posted, Saligir put buu in the ssj2 Vegetto tier so if you believe the artist then I guess you should believe the author... Maybe I wasn't clear here, and it's a moot point to your chart anyways, but the problem was at ssj1 Vegetto stated that she wasn't jack shit to his ssj1. She goes level 2 and all of a sudden they are almost equal and Vegetto doesn't contest that statement from Ginyu so it's taken as true. Why does ginyu's level 2 almost equal Vegetto's but not at all at level one??? Makes no sense. The real bra's ssj1 was the same as Ginyu's but her ssj2 never caused Vegetto to even have to use his level 2 as stated by Gohan during the broly fight. Why the disparage between 1 and 2. If ginyu mastered 2 so damn strongly, why couldn't he do the same at 1? Totally agree. How much power was in that part? Probably won't know till we see scaley back in action again. OK,OK,OK, I admit I don't know much about the back story outside of the manga but what little I got off the scary fandom wiki stuff was that the kaios only live for a few million years and that Bibidi sealed away buu 5 million years ago. Working off that limited and perhaps untrustworthy information, I dared to assume that east kai was a baby kaio and that Grand was probably already pushing the latter years of his life and certainly north just judging from appearance. Obviously in 5 million years east still looks young so that part hardly matters but either way my logic still makes sense if those numbers are accurate then only a very young kaioshin would still be alive 5 million years later. EDIT: also just remembered that old kai was 75 million years ago and was many generations of kaios ago so that would make sense with the lifespans I stated You know, you're right on this one. Thanks for pointing it out, I forgot it was a separate part that survived so I concede my point. Also, from the look of uub he was pretty depleted from that attack when he was trying to hold buu in the shell so I'm guessing he was definitely a close "> buu" within the same tier at max kiaoken. Again, not an expert as you apparently are on this subject so I'll have to defer my speculation on that part over what you think you're certain of. Thanks Edit: Also on your last post, it looks like both west and dabura were pretty close to equal in taking the sucker punches (kick). Looking very close I'd say west looks a little more stunned than dabura was so I think you should definitely wait on taking any of this into account but they definitely appear to be right next to each other on the same tier at the moment.
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Post by mbg on Sept 15, 2017 17:37:59 GMT
I don't want to sound rude... but between you and the artist I will go with the artist hahaha. It's not like Asura is going to add "hints" without Salagir's approval. Not rude at all, I would think that too except recently I learned from Saligir quote thread that the artists take all kinds of liberties and have their own opinions and can't be taken as if saligir said it himself. Like I said, it's still something for sure that the artist hinted something but my rational about Gast looking for a challenge but then having to resort to doing sneaky shit to win suggests mightly that he wasn't holding back, imho. Well I posted about this with khan, but to add more, in my opinion buu in space was held to ssj1 Vegetto. That was enough to handle the heavily depleted vegetto and 2 mystic level fighters especially with his innate ability to multiply and regenerate. When bra went level 2 she merely equaled him and she eliminated the others so there was still no true threat from someone at his same PL with all his advantages. When he powered up against Gotenks he increased to ssj2 Vegetto level. Absolutely nothing else would explain why Vegetto had the sweat drop. If he was only at ssj1 Vegetto levels then there would be no sweat drop from Vegetto. Doesn't that make sense? Sure, he could be still holding back, but nothing suggests it other than that it happens a lot in DB. Perhaps Vegetto is still holding back? He did say "I must show my true power!" while going level 2 only to go even beyond his "true power" a few pages later... anyways, anyone can be holding back but there is one strong piece of evidence to suggest buu is not beyond ssj2 vegetto which is what he must have been against gotenks and that is that when Vegetto went level 3 Buu was truly impressed. You cannot be someone like buu and be impressed by a rival who merely equals you. That was a, wow, you REALLY impressed me moment. Well, that and as solus posted, Saligir put buu in the ssj2 Vegetto tier so if you believe the artist then I guess you should believe the author... Maybe I wasn't clear here, and it's a moot point to your chart anyways, but the problem was at ssj1 Vegetto stated that she wasn't jack shit to his ssj1. She goes level 2 and all of a sudden they are almost equal and Vegetto doesn't contest that statement from Ginyu so it's taken as true. Why does ginyu's level 2 almost equal Vegetto's but not at all at level one??? Makes no sense. The real bra's ssj1 was the same as Ginyu's but her ssj2 never caused Vegetto to even have to use his level 2 as stated by Gohan during the broly fight. Why the disparage between 1 and 2. If ginyu mastered 2 so damn strongly, why couldn't he do the same at 1? Totally agree. How much power was in that part? Probably won't know till we see scaley back in action again. OK,OK,OK, I admit I don't know much about the back story outside of the manga but what little I got off the scary fandom wiki stuff was that the kaios only live for a few million years and that Bibidi sealed away buu 5 million years ago. Working off that limited and perhaps untrustworthy information, I dared to assume that east kai was a baby kaio and that Grand was probably already pushing the latter years of his life and certainly north just judging from appearance. Obviously in 5 million years east still looks young so that part hardly matters but either way my logic still makes sense if those numbers are accurate then only a very young kaioshin would still be alive 5 million years later. EDIT: also just remembered that old kai was 75 million years ago and was many generations of kaios ago so that would make sense with the lifespans I stated You know, you're right on this one. Thanks for pointing it out, I forgot it was a separate part that survived so I concede my point. Also, from the look of uub he was pretty depleted from that attack when he was trying to hold buu in the shell so I'm guessing he was definitely a close "> buu" within the same tier at max kiaoken. Again, not an expert as you apparently are on this subject so I'll have to defer my speculation on that part over what you think you're certain of. Thanks Edit: Also on your last post, it looks like both west and dabura were pretty close to equal in taking the sucker punches (kick). Looking very close I'd say west looks a little more stunned than dabura was so I think you should definitely wait on taking any of this into account but they definitely appear to be right next to each other on the same tier at the moment. IIRC, there's no word on whether the Kais train or not, but it makes sense. DBM pretty consistently has godlike or immortal beings not bothering to train, with the only exceptions being characters who are Saiyans or have Saiyan mindsets (and Gast, who has a goal he's working towards).
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Post by fooshin on Sept 15, 2017 19:08:22 GMT
IIRC, there's no word on whether the Kais train or not, but it makes sense. DBM pretty consistently has godlike or immortal beings not bothering to train, with the only exceptions being characters who are Saiyans or have Saiyan mindsets (and Gast, who has a goal he's working towards). Perhaps. There's also the DBM frost demon approach that power comes with age in which case what I said still applies. Could also be they're all just born adults at there exact power for life and that power is different for each. Obviously there's knowledge and techniques that are passed down or learned independently... or thru fusion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2017 16:38:45 GMT
IIRC, there's no word on whether the Kais train or not, but it makes sense. DBM pretty consistently has godlike or immortal beings not bothering to train, with the only exceptions being characters who are Saiyans or have Saiyan mindsets (and Gast, who has a goal he's working towards). Perhaps. There's also the DBM frost demon approach that power comes with age in which case what I said still applies. Could also be they're all just born adults at there exact power for life and that power is different for each. Obviously there's knowledge and techniques that are passed down or learned independently... or thru fusion. I agree with you. There's this thing that's been circulating around that the Kais are born from some tree in the Sacred World of the Kais where fruits from the tree would go on to form regular Kais and rare golden fruits give rise to Supreme Kais. They may be born with similar power levels but may choose to increase it through training. South Supreme Kai may be an example of that.
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Post by Gogeta on Oct 1, 2017 13:26:54 GMT
So on YouTube someone has made a Top 50 Strongest DBM Characters List.Now there are definitely things on this list I disagree with but I have to commend the effort put into making this list and its good to see DBM is popular enough for the "Strongest Character List" treatment.
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Post by Solus on Oct 1, 2017 22:23:43 GMT
So on YouTube someone has made a Top 50 Strongest DBM Characters List.Now there are definitely things on this list I disagree with but I have to commend the effort put into making this list and its good to see DBM is popular enough for the "Strongest Character List" treatment. I don't give a damn about that list. I didn't even bother to search for it. There is literally no-one except for Salagir who knows more about DBM than we do on this forum. So if this certain someone who made that video on youtube isn't someone of us, it can't be more accurate than what we figured out in this threat. And if he is one of us, then it should be the same and hence doesn't deliver any new information. We are the wisemen of DBM. You have my permission to quote that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 23:53:02 GMT
So on YouTube someone has made a Top 50 Strongest DBM Characters List.Now there are definitely things on this list I disagree with but I have to commend the effort put into making this list and its good to see DBM is popular enough for the "Strongest Character List" treatment. I don't give a damn about that list. I didn't even bother to search for it. There is literally no-one except for Salagir who knows more about DBM than we do on this forum. So if this certain someone who made that video on youtube isn't someone of us, it can't be more accurate than what we figured out in this threat. And if he is one of us, then it should be the same and hence doesn't deliver any new information. We are the wisemen of DBM. You have my permission to quote that. Humility isn’t really one of your strong suits is it?
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 2, 2017 0:30:28 GMT
So on YouTube someone has made a Top 50 Strongest DBM Characters List.Now there are definitely things on this list I disagree with but I have to commend the effort put into making this list and its good to see DBM is popular enough for the "Strongest Character List" treatment. Agreed- I'd definitely re-structure that list a bit but on the whole it's pretty damn good. Main ones would be moving Gast back a few positions and putting Zen Buu ahead of Broly.
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Post by Solus on Oct 2, 2017 0:55:04 GMT
I don't give a damn about that list. I didn't even bother to search for it. There is literally no-one except for Salagir who knows more about DBM than we do on this forum. So if this certain someone who made that video on youtube isn't someone of us, it can't be more accurate than what we figured out in this threat. And if he is one of us, then it should be the same and hence doesn't deliver any new information. We are the wisemen of DBM. You have my permission to quote that. Humility isn’t really one of your strong suits is it? All I'm saying is, that there is no point in discussing a list of an external source. They can't possible have any more information than we have. And they can't possibly think of anything we had not. There are only two options. Either the ranking is good. In this case it has to be similar to our list in this thread and there is nothing to discuss. Or it is not similar to our list. In that case it is bullshit and also not worth discussing. But for the sake of the argument, someone provide a link to that video, please.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2017 1:16:51 GMT
Humility isn’t really one of your strong suits is it? All I'm saying is, that there is no point in discussing a list of an external source. They can't possible have any more information than we have. And they can't possibly think of anything we had not. There are only two options. Either the ranking is good. In this case it has to be similar to our list in this thread and there is nothing to discuss. Or it is not similar to our list. In that case it is bullshit and also not worth discussing. But for the sake of the argument, someone provide a link to that video, please. It was already linked in Gogeta’s post.
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