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Post by Solus on Oct 2, 2017 19:24:16 GMT
All I'm saying is, that there is no point in discussing a list of an external source. They can't possible have any more information than we have. And they can't possibly think of anything we had not. There are only two options. Either the ranking is good. In this case it has to be similar to our list in this thread and there is nothing to discuss. Or it is not similar to our list. In that case it is bullshit and also not worth discussing. But for the sake of the argument, someone provide a link to that video, please. It was already linked in Gogeta’s post. Oh ... On my PC the normal letters are something like dark grey and the link was in black. Didn't see the difference. Thanks for the hint Ok, now I watched it and it is a mix of both versions. It's not that bullshitty but it's still far from being accurate. I checked our original post and realized that it still isn't updated. Wasn't Argelios going to do that? Freezer is still above Cooler. And another thing I'd like to request is, only to include characters on the levels that have already been shown and not something we anticipate (like Goku, Vegeta and Gogeta). I know, it would be hard to give Cell a place, but it just looks stupid to put Goku and Vegeta in the mystic tier although they did nothing yet to prove that.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 4, 2017 21:04:18 GMT
Gogeta Not a baaad list, but not perfect... you just can't have Pan U18 stronger than Zangya. Anyway I like it, I agree with things like Trunks- Kakarotto Ozaru SSJ-Cell Jr. Also that list made me realize I forgot to add Tapion ( with Hildegarn Aura) ..... Basic SSJ Tier I think. EDIT
It's me or is that list based on mine? I mean, he even added the 3 Toon force characters haha Solus I have the updated version, but I was waiting for the chapter to end to upload it. Anyway I think I can upload it now, I made a lot of changes people pointed out. Tomorrow, promise. Yes, it can be only shown characters... but for example, there's enough foreshadowing to prove Vegeta and Goku think they are at least Mystic Gohan level. Also is fun xD
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Post by Solus on Oct 5, 2017 10:42:46 GMT
Gogeta Not a baaad list, but not perfect... you just can't have Pan U18 stronger than Zangya. Anyway I like it, I agree with things like Trunks- Kakarotto Ozaru SSJ-Cell Jr. Also that list made me realize I forgot to add Tapion ( with Hildegarn Aura) ..... Basic SSJ Tier I think. It's very hard to assume Hildegarn's strength here. Though he didn't do anything against Cell, we also can't be sure, on which level Cell was at that time. Cell Jr. for example was supposed to be a very strong SSJ2 but absolutely fucked up against Vegeta SSJ3 who was on the verge of death and just reached that level. So Cell, who is supposed to be stronger than his Jr., should be at least at the same level as Vegeta U13 when he fought Tapion. So Hildegarn could be anything up to Cell Jr. U17 level and would still be unable to hurt Cell. And based on the movie he was at least able to oneshot Vegeta with his fire breath, which didn't do shit to Cell now. We'd have to ask Salagir, if we really want to be clear on this. EDIT
It's me or is that list based on mine? I mean, he even added the 3 Toon force characters haha Yes, that could be. Not sure about that scaling with Pan, but it seems as it is very similar to your first list. I'm also not sure about C18. I think he made her higher than she should have been. Somewhere above Zangya. But I don't see Bojack's gang that weak. They all should be around Cell Jr. level, don't you agree? Solus I have the updated version, but I was waiting for the chapter to end to upload it. Anyway I think I can upload it now, I made a lot of changes people pointed out. Tomorrow, promise. Yes, it can be only shown characters... but for example, there's enough foreshadowing to prove Vegeta and Goku think they are at least Mystic Gohan level. Also is fun xD Yeah, it's fun, but not accurate at the current time. Sure, everything hints to that it will be proven right in the future. But remember the time when people thought Gast was Vegetto tier? Now we are not so sure about that. Figures I suggest, we take out of the ranking: Gogeta SSJ3 - wasn't shown at all and it is very unclear whether he will appear and how strong he will be. We don't know the exact strength of Goku and Vegeta so Gogeta is bound to stay a dark horse. And in my opinion he should be as strong as Vegetto, otherwise there was no point in including him in the story at all. Or let's rephrase that. He might be weaker than Vegetto, but at least in the same tier. Broly U3 - Absolutely no hint about his actual powerlevel. He was able to hold Gast but I don't think this does mean anything at all. Physical strength doesn't equal power level. Look at how strong Mr. Satan is. He was able to pull 3 trucks or so which makes him definitely several times stronger than Videl. Nevertheless Videl's powerlevel must be way higher than his. And as you said your ranking would only contain power levels (which is what I think you mean when you said "strength") and no special abilities, I wouldn't put Broly that high in the ranking. I think, at a SSJ2 level he would be perfectly able to do anything he did in the fight against Gast. But that's just my own opinion. Mystic Raditz - We still know nothing about him. He himself expected to be stronger than Vegeta. But that assumption is simply based on Gohan's portrayal of his own power. Since the old Kaioshin said so in Videl's fight against Cold, not everyone has the same potential. He said it would take 10 hours for Videl, but it took like 24 hours for Gohan. Female Vegeta - did he ever go SSJ2? And even if, there is no point in having that form here. Even if you'd like to include him(/her?) for whatever reason it is absolutely unclear where to put him ... Heliotes with no armor - They seem like normal humans to me. Or like normal special trained humans, because they are soldiers. What was the strongest soldier in DB? Like 150? That is definitely not android level. Look at how they fared against Kakarot and Raditz in the special. Their armor was not as good as it is now, but if they were android level without that, they wouldn't have lost against two Saiyans at 1500. But since none of them ever fought without their armor I just wouldn't include them. Trunks U9 - same reason. No information acquired up to this point.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 5, 2017 20:09:05 GMT
It's very hard to assume Hildegarn's strength here. So Hildegarn could be anything up to Cell Jr. U17 level and would still be unable to hurt Cell. And based on the movie he was at least able to oneshot Vegeta with his fire breath, which didn't do shit to Cell now. We'd have to ask Salagir, if we really want to be clear on this. Just to clarify, I meant this Tapion with Hildegarn's aura: He is able to take hits from Krilin and attack him once... but Krilin is just stronger. About Hildegarn itself, Salagir retconed it, he is maximun at SSJ2, sadly. (More information U16 novel) I agree, I changed them to cell jr level in the new update. Agree (but with Vegeta new "transformation") He should be SSJ2 like you say... buuuut... Salagir made him strong as fuck, stronger than Vegeta SSJ3 for sure, Vegeta asks Broly to destroy Gast body, he knows Broly is stronger. Remember Mystic Gohan is way stronger than a SSJ3 (lets say... 10 times) and he needed 24 hours, I think Mystic Raditz needs only (7 hours?) to get to a normal SSJ3, and also that would serve for plot purposes (his fight against Vegeta SSJ3 back at U13. Gag character, deleted from the Ranking. Salagir's mistake, it's not possible for a mortal to be as strong as a SSJ like you say, but Salagir did it. During his fight, A16 said Eleim was strong because he trained and they where "equal"... I will move Heloites no armor a little anyway. Novel information, he is weaker than Videl but still knows Kaioken. Update later today.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 6, 2017 0:31:34 GMT
NEW UPDATEAdded on the first post (here too) LIST OF CHANGES:
Level 10:-Gogeta moved here. Level 9: -Zen Buu > Broly Level 8: -New Gotenks > Bra SSJ2 -Level 7: -Hatchiyack moved next to Gast, Normal Gotenks moved next to Gohan. -Ghost Broly to the botton of the tier. Level 6: -Vegeta SSJ3 moved next to Uub -Mystic Raditz moved next to Fat Buu -Added Majin Cell Jrs 2.5
-Level 5: -2nd Cell Jr strongest in the Tier -Added ">>" and other changes (See SSJ2Tier References)
-Level 4: -Pan SSJ, Zangya and Bujin moved to this tier. -Female Vegeta deleted. -Added 1st Cell jr.
-Level 3: -Yamcha moved next to A16. -Added Goten and Trunks SSJ. -Added Repaired C18. -Added NORMAL ARMOR. -Heloites no armor moved to the botton of the tier. (Now really with no armor) -Level 2: -Ghost Vegeta strongest in the Tier. -Cooler > Frieza. -King Piccolo moved to the botton. -Added Tapion (Hildegarn's aura) -Level 1: -Gerkin and Saiyans moved here. -Level 0: -Belzebub and Sun Wukong moved here. -Added Frieza Soldiers. EXTRA: SSJ2 TIER REFERENCES:
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 6, 2017 0:36:27 GMT
Argelios Gotenks SSJ3 (pre Buu steroids) was already stronger than SSJ2 Bra though. This is the main reason she hates Gotenks, she believes they do not deserve such supreme power. Vegetto SSJ1 is also stronger than Bra ("Vegetto never used SSJ2 before! NOT EVEN AGAINST BRA!" said by Piccolo or Gohan U16). I also think the power shown by new fusion Gotenks SSJ3 and Zen Buu was equivalent to SSJ2 Vegetto. I'd also say new fusion Gotenks was as strong as Broly during the ending of Vegetto's fight. With this taken into account, I'd also put Zen Buu above Vegetto SSJ2 tier, but still very considerably below his SSJ3 or a new form Gogeta. I'd put him with a ">" after SSJ3 Vegeto and New Gogeta like you did in more complicate tiers like the Mystic one.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 6, 2017 0:45:25 GMT
Argelios Now THAT's a tier list. Seriously- Despite all our whinging and complaining (And hopefully thoughtful discussion) you've put together a masterful list with a great deal of justification for potentially contentious selections. Literally the only thing i'm not sure about is putting the Majin Cell Jr's in the SS3 Tier. Even putting them right at the bottom seems too overpowered considering Gohan crushed them in one shot. This is just me but i'd move them to the top of the SS2 tier. Otherwise while there's ones in there that are still hard to predict because we haven't seen their full power or their has been no comparison to another fighter to get their tier level, i can't fault your reasoning. Well done mate!
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 6, 2017 1:41:00 GMT
These are my fixed top tiers, if I may add. I want to include further references later (to Buu saga stuff and Buu himself mostly) to facilitate a clearer understanding and comparison. Mystic for example is just a random clusterfuck, mostly big-jumps, arbitrary tier. After all, from a 'mere ssj3' to 'vegeto ssj1' there is really an universe in a leap. At least, it appears to be so when you don't factor Super Buu, SSJ3 Kid Gotenks, Buutenks, Buuhan, etc.. Mystic tier in this case is like saying Uulong-Bojack tier.
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Post by iron leaf on Oct 6, 2017 1:47:24 GMT
Wait a minute, where do you have the picture with U18 Pan SSJ1 from? All this time and I didn't realize it. That looks amazing.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 6, 2017 2:44:59 GMT
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 6, 2017 3:26:52 GMT
I wonder, should we even have a 'Mystic' Tier? Considering the highest level of Super Saiyan in DBZ was SS3 and by unlocking Gohans potential it basically made him permanently SS3 but no power drain- His huge potential is what made him so high. Therefore Super Buu, Goku (SS3), Gotenks (SS3), and Gohan would all be the same tier, just at different levels within that tier (With Gohan at the top). The only people above the SS3 tier (DBZ God tier)- Would be Buutenks, Buuhan, Vegetto, and finally Vegetto SS1 as the undisputed most powerful character in the DBZ franchise. Argelios- (Below) I'd say because those jr's are sadistic bastards and they were playing with Goten just like they played with the Z fighters during the cell games?
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Post by Argelios on Oct 6, 2017 3:27:17 GMT
Argelios Gotenks SSJ3 (pre Buu steroids) was already stronger than SSJ2 Bra though. This is the main reason she hates Gotenks, she believes they do not deserve such supreme power. What? Can you post the source? I think is impossible for Gotenks to go from weaker than Mystic Gohan (DBZ) to Equal to Vegetto SSJ!!! just because of age. I think the novel says something about Bra hating Gotenks but I think she refers he is stronger than her in SSJ, that makes sense and also would also explain why Goku only confirms Gotenks superiority after the Buu steroids. (He thinks normal Gotenks SSJ3 hasn't passed him) She is weaker than Vegetto SSJ1, because she is in Vegetto SSJ Tier doesn't mean she is stronger... they are close anyway. But I think I have to add a ">" between Gotenks and her next update. For this... NO, and is proven, I think we can agree Buu was playing with Gotenks the whole time, so he is one Tier above Gotenks. Now, the thing is: Zen Buu is Vegetto SSJ2 Tier confirmed by Salagir on page 278. And also SSJ2 Bra in Vegetto SSJ Tier. Haha Yes, Mystic tier goes from Super Buu to Gotenks to SSJ to Mystic Gohan..... Bra SSJ2 is other league! About your reference breakdown: DBZ characters are well placed, but SSJ2 Bra and Buu-Gohan-Gotenks aren't on that tier. VoidSlayer Thank you very much! The weird thing about Majin Cell Jrs is that one of them didn't kill Goten in one shot xD... anyway since Cell is stronger now they should be between SSJ2 and SSJ3. But there's no tier for that so I put them there. iron leaf I colored it! The lineart is from Gogeta Jr sketches.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 6, 2017 4:02:50 GMT
Argelios I do not think either Adult Gotenks or SSJ2 Bra are as strong as Vegetto SSJ1, that's the point. There is still a big gap just like there was one with Buuhan. I'd say Adult Gotenks is comparably as strong as Buuhan after absorbing Goku and Vegeta in the U4 special. Bra of course would need to be lower, normal Buuhan or Buutenks level like I placed her. When you come to think about this, it feels more natural than going from Super Buu >> SSJ1 Vegetto. When you come to think about it, Buuhan was basically a Super Buu x 3, and Buutenks would be a Super Buu x2. Not so crazy now right? Now, to go from Super Buu to "Super Buuhan U4" to SSJ2 Vegetto with a far superior, mastered fusion technique, doesn't seem as crazy (although it still is). I apologize for the shoddy source. It was long time ago that I read it, so when I checked again it wasn't as clear as I thought it was, but still... it implies they are not too far away as you are thinking (being in entirely different tiers.) If anything, I just forgot to include Adult Gotenks in this tier, so I don't think anything besides that is really wrong. Truly, SSJ1 Vegetto tier should be Vegetto alone. Or maybe, we can get SSJ1 Gogeta or SSJ2 Gogeta from Buu saga depending on how do you estimate him. But that'd be pointless since that never happened in DBM. As for Zen Buu... you all know the properties of his body and his multiple abilities. I'd say that in real terms, saying SSJ2 Vegetto = Zen Buu would not be totally clear in a real battle. Maybe not even in pure strength, since theoretically Buu should know a Kaioken, and on top of that also has an ultra armor. Salagir himself said that despite the similar tiers this wasn't totally clear. Zen Buu also did not seem impressed at all with SSJ2 Vegetto, and even said very confident of himself... For fuck's sake, he's even talking about "allowing him to rest and recover to then crush him like a bug" just after he made huge clashes in SSJ2. Not only that, but after Broly surpassed Vegetto's SSJ2, Buu was still like "Hell yeah, I'll finish this now" (!!). Only when he turned SSJ3 and took the mass of the moon he started showing amusement, but no concern at all: This to me clearly says SSJ3 Vegetto >> Buu >> Vegetto SSJ2, easily. You may ask that he also appears quite unconcerned about Vegetto's SSJ3 and that he could just have been bluffing since the beggining, but remember he's aware of how durable he is, and how little SSJ3 Vegetto can last.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 6, 2017 5:56:34 GMT
I wonder, should we even have a 'Mystic' Tier? Considering the highest level of Super Saiyan in DBZ was SS3 and by unlocking Gohans potential it basically made him permanently SS3 but no power drain- Therefore Super Buu, Goku (SS3), Gotenks (SS3), and Gohan would all be the same tier, just at different levels within that tier (With Gohan at the top). You are confused, Mystic Gohan is way way stronger than a SSJ3, that's why it's a different tier, let me explain: In the manga Gotenks SSJ was enough to defeat Fat Buu, Goku SSJ3 could do it too. So we can say Gotenks SSJ = Goku SSJ3. Then, again in the manga we know Mystic Gohan is slightly stronger than Gotenks SSJ3. So it goes like this: Mystic Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 >>>>>>>>> Gotenks SSJ/ Goku SSJ3 > Fat Buu.As you can see Mystic Gohan is another league compared to a normal SSJ3, he needs his own tier... but I could change the name to "Mystic Gohan tier" to be more precise. Conqueror Geng Man, Salagir himself already stated Buu is in Vegetto SSJ2 Tier and Bra SSJ2 is Vegetto SSJ Tier. Funny thing is I thought the same as him even before I knew about this official information. But let's begin there. -About Bra vs Normal Gotenks:Trunks being cocky about Gotenks, that's new xD... Also his statement is true if we only count SSJ Bra, Bra can't go SSJ2 on the tournament because she would start killing everyone, Vegetto forbade Bra to do it. So yeah, normal Gotenks would be stronger than Bra in a fight at the tournament. Also it makes more sense for Gotenks with an adult body to go from weaker than Mystic Gohan to equal to Mystic Gohan with his adult body... not to freakin Vegetto SSJ!! or even to Buu-Gohan-Goku-Vegeta as you state. -About Zen Buu
Zen Buu being at Vegetto SSJ2 tier only means he is closer to Vegetto SSJ2 than he is from Vegetto SSJ3.
Does this mean Vegetto SSJ3 would defeat Zen Buu? Not at all, I think Buu would win that fight, he has so many abilities he would win at the end. But this is an strength ranking, Zen Buu's full power punches and Ki blasts are closer to Vegetto SSJ2's. Thats all. Confirmed by Salagir. Yeah, but SSJ2 Bra is close, Salagir's canon xD
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 6, 2017 6:12:00 GMT
Should we really take that comment (which was almost a decade ago) as the total last word? I mean, lots of stuff (which clearly wasn't intended to happen back then) have happened.
Salagir also forgot that Mystic Gohan >> Bra SSJ1 (I myself had to remind myself of such data during a post in the comments). One thing is for sure though: The jump of SSJ1 to SSJ2, is far less than that of base to SSJ1.
So, if Base Vegeto is at Mystic Gohan level, and we suppose his SSJ1 is 50 levels increase, then Bra at base is at FPSSJ level, increased by 50 times... you get something close to Mystic Gohan with her SSJ. However, a SSJ2 transformation would not be enough to repeat the (for convenience) 50x increase from Base Vegeto to SSJ1 Vegeto. SSj2 at best is a 5 to 10 times increase. Even with SSJ2, SSJ2 Bra would still be leagues beneath SSJ2 Vegeto. As would be Adult Gotenks.
What we have seen explicitly in the comic until now matters more to me. So, the Buu wording still tells me SSJ3 Vegetto >> Zen Buu >> SSj2 Vegetto and IMO this should be prioritized over that Salagir comment. If we take that specific Salagir comment as the endword, then Buu's wording in regards to SSJ2-SSJ3 Vegetto and Broly make absolutely no sense. Either way, Buu doesn't necessarily have to be at the bottom SSJ3 Vegetto tier. I am willing to concede he'd be at the very top of Vegetto SSJ2 tier (even above Vegetto SSJ2 himself, by a considerable, but still closer margin to the respective tier). My main point is that Zen Buu is superior to SSJ2 Vegetto, even if in the same tier. So if even SSJ3 Vegetto isn't sure to defeat Buu, then of course it would be impossible to give him a good fight at SSJ2.
He couldn't have been bluffing or boasting, since he was speaking to himself.
By the way, what you said about Gotenks only being stronger than SSJ2 Bra is misinterpreting what was said, when you take into account how it was worded. He first said something like "You'll be beat by daddy anyway!" meaning that they wouldn't even have to worry about her, since Vegetto would defeat her. However, he then said "but it doesn't matter because Gotenks is still stronger than you sis".
Thus, he is meaning: -In the tournament, they wouldn't worry about Bra because Vegetto would disqualify her -Despite not needing to worry about it, he still said "but we are stronger than you" -This means Gotenks is stronger than her in general, not just under tournament restrictions -Both Goten and Trunks certainly have seen Bra go SSJ2 at least a couple times back home, or at least sensed her
What does that tell us, in spite Salagir's comment? I feel this is kinda a dead end since Salagir's comment says one thing, but the comic/novel themselves have shown other.
This is like debating whether Buu was created by Bibidi, or was a so-called eldritch/demonic entity from times immemorial. Bibidi was shown to be the sole creator of Kid Buu in the Manga/Anime, but statements of Toriyama on outside interviews (basically the equivalent of that comment, since Salagir doesn't get international TV interviews) have told us that Bibidi found Kid Buu in some demonic crackhouse and just somehow controlled him.
Thus far, there are 4 things that contradict Salagir's comment, in the comic or novel themselves: -Saying he'd wait SSJ2 Vegetto to heal and rest to "crush him like a bug" (impossible to do this so non-chalantly if he's truly in the same exact tier, even with regen) -Saying he'd have the pleasure to eliminate Broly himself, now that he became stronger than SSJ2 Vegetto (not only he thinks he can beat SSJ2 Vegetto, but someone who he himself could not defeat) -Only acting slightly amused at Vegetto's radical SSJ3 transformation -Buu vs. Gotenks fight in 3rd round (I would need a whole new post to explain this specific point, will do tomorrow).
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 6, 2017 6:33:56 GMT
I wonder, should we even have a 'Mystic' Tier? Considering the highest level of Super Saiyan in DBZ was SS3 and by unlocking Gohans potential it basically made him permanently SS3 but no power drain- Therefore Super Buu, Goku (SS3), Gotenks (SS3), and Gohan would all be the same tier, just at different levels within that tier (With Gohan at the top). You are confused, Mystic Gohan is way way stronger than a SSJ3, that's why it's a different tier, let me explain:In the manga Gotenks SSJ was enough to defeat Fat Buu, Goku SSJ3 could do it too. So we can say Gotenks SSJ = Goku SSJ3. Then, again in the manga we know Mystic Gohan is slightly stronger than Gotenks SSJ3. So it goes like this: Mystic Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 >>>>>>>>> Gotenks SSJ/ Goku SSJ3 > Fat Buu.As you can see Mystic Gohan is another league compared to a normal SSJ3, he needs his own tier... but I could change the name to "Mystic Gohan tier" to be more precise. I never bought that argument, since it relies on the different versions of Buu to place them all on the power scale. Mostly though i don't think it was even said that Gotenks as a SS1 could beat Fat Buu. Of course i'm referring to the anime- Clearly he was superior, yet to what degree we don't know. I put it more like this- Mystic Gohan >> Super Buu = Gotenks SS3 > Goku SS3 = Kid Buu >> Fat Buu. I don't recall anytime where Gotenks strength as a SS1 was ever mentioned. More specifically in Gohans case his entire 'Mystic' Schtick was never really defined. It was something along the lines of all his potential all at once without needing to transform. Problem is you can't really define 'potential'. It wasn't a transformation and it was never compared to Goku's power at the time. So i see it as a 'max' SS3 with no actual transformation- Enough to cream Super Buu but not nearly enough to take on Buutenks
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 6, 2017 6:47:55 GMT
I think it is fine to have Mystic Gohan in SS3 tier. If he trained and unlocked that power through training he would likely be as strong as Mystic Gohan is in SS3 form, since that seemed to be his max potential. Old Kai just modified his body to be more efficient so Gohan wouldn't need to deal with Super Saiyan forms stamina issues altogether. SS3 is probably a wide range from Fat Buu all the way to Gotenks Buu/Gohan Buu. I get giving Mystic is own tier for this list to help differentiate things though.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 6, 2017 6:55:30 GMT
Should we really take that comment (which was almost a decade ago) as the total last word? I mean, lots of stuff (which clearly wasn't intended to happen back then) have happened. That's what we have, Salagir often makes mistakes and forgets things, but I agree with his tier logic, except for one thing (and I know this is our problem): Bra SSJ2 Power Up is just OP! It doesn't make sense SSJ2 Bra gets into Vegetto SSJ tier if we use the logic of the normal SSJs bust, but thats the point, Salagir wanted to make Bra special. God, he even went too far during the Ginyu subplot, that means he wants SSJ2 Bra to be at Vegetto SSJ Tier for plot purposes and I can't change that in the ranking because it doesn't match with SSJs busts logic. I don't agree with Heolites no armor being as strong as a SSJ but they are in the Ranking. Situation summary:
The rest of the Tiers I agree and I will do a recap: -Normal Gotenks:Trunks and Goten became stronger because of the adult body, for Gotenks to go from weaker than Mystic Gohan to equal to Mystic Gohan makes sense to me, I see impossible to see Gotenks reach Buu-Gohan-Goku-Vegeta power without doing shit. -Son Bra:Her SSJ is slightly below Gohan, we all know that, her SSJ2 is OP and puts her near SSJ Vegetto, doesn't make sense with SSJ's bust logic, but thats what we have. -Zen Buu:Hasn't DONE anything yet to prove his brute strenght is close to Vegetto's SSJ3, Salagir said it isn't, Buu would still win against Vegetto easily because all the abilities he has. He is, I never said otherwise, Broly is also stronger than SSJ2 Vegetto, we came to an agreement, now I will go to sleep, its freakin 2AM here.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 6, 2017 6:57:47 GMT
I think it is fine to have Mystic Gohan in SS3 tier. If he trained and unlocked that power through training he would likely be as strong as Mystic Gohan is in SS3 form, since that seemed to be his max potential. Old Kai just modified his body to be more efficient so Gohan wouldn't need to deal with Super Saiyan forms stamina issues altogether. SS3 is probably a wide range from Fat Buu all the way to Gotenks Buu/Gohan Buu. I get giving Mystic is own tier for this list to help differentiate things though. I like this way of thinking. My main problem with Mystic is it's really hard to define what it actually is. I actually like Supers interpretation- It's an actual transformation into a non-draining SS3. Piccolo also says (When Gohan re-discovers it) that they can keep training to keep improving. That makes more sense to me that just an arbitrary: "You're now at you max power you can ever possibly be."
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 7, 2017 2:39:48 GMT
(EDIT: Put this in the Today's Page Thread by accident, lol) Since we're talking about Gohan PLs, let me throw in my two cents. First off, to argue Gohan > SS3 Goku, I need to argue Gotenks > Goku. Goku told Fat Buu a warrior stronger than him would fight Buu. This means that at that very moment, he was planning on teaching the boys fusion: Goku thought he could beat Fat Buu, so this means Goku estimated the boys would be able to reach a level similar to his SS3 through fusion.(CONTRADICTION: Goku initially told Piccolo he wasn’t sure he could beat Fat Buu. Make of that what you will.) The first time the boys fuse (we’ll call this Gotenks 1.0), Piccolo acknowledges the boys are stronger. This implies base Gotenks 1.0 is stronger than they were as either SS Trunks or Goten alone. (No hard indicator they were stronger than Piccolo.) Base Gotenks 1.0 is no match for Fat Buu. Super Gotenks 1.0 is a transformation’s jump in power, and clearly stronger and faster than Piccolo. When the kids fuse against Super Buu, Piccolo’s initially worried about how they aren’t fusing as Super Saiyans. After seeing them fused in base, though, he is no longer concerned. This implies this new Gotenks (we’ll call him Gotenks 2.0) is equal to or stronger than Super Gotenks 1.0. In other words, base Gotenks 2.0 is an entire transformation stronger than base Gotenks 1.0.Gotenks then goes Super above that. He’s now a transformation squared above base Gotenks 1.0. He then goes SS3 above that. Here’s the super crucial point: when Goku sees Gotenks is a SS3, he is surprised—he didn’t think Gotenks would be able to reach that level!( Dub Line: Goku, seeing Gotenks SS3, says “even if I trained my entire life, they’d still be stronger than me!” which contradicts Goku being stronger than either Gotenks or Gohan.) In other words, when Goku first faced Fat Buu and estimated that Gotenks would be able to beat him, he must’ve thought Gotenks would be able to win in either base form or SS1. He hadn’t expected them to go SS3. At the very least, making Gotenks as weak as possible, Super Gotenks 2.0 (the one that fought Super Buu) is equal to SS3 Goku. And he can go SS3 on top of that. In short, Gotenks is to Goku what Goku is to Piccolo: two whole transformations higher! (Goku’s SS1 is on max Piccolo’s tier. At the very least, SS1 Gotenks 2.0 is on max Goku’s tier.) From what information we’ve been given in the manga, it turns out the gap between Goku’s SS3 and the Super Buu tier is mind-bogglingly enormous, far larger than I’ve ever seen anyone else on the internet ever suggest. Goku would do just as well against SS3 Gotenks as Piccolo would do against SS3 Goku. Do you think Piccolo would be able to land a hit on SS3 Goku? Do you think he’d even be able to damage SS3 Goku? That’s what SS3 Gotenks would be to SS3 Goku. And Mystic Gohan’s ever farther beyond that. I don’t think people realize just how stupidly powerful Gohan is. He could beat the everliving crap out of the Super Buu who was around SS3 Gotenks’ level, except he hadn’t fused with anyone. I don’t think this is a gap that Goku could easily surpass, if he even could surpass it. It’d be like Piccolo passing up Goku through training alone. Think of it this way: GT Goku was so heavily buffed by the writers that his base is equal to Buu saga Goku’s SS3. Even with this enormous buff, he’d still need SS3 to beat Mystic Gohan.
All things considered, I think DBM's Gohan is too weak. But I don't mind at all. (By the way, this is all part of a massive Buu saga PL list explanation that I'll probably never post on the forum because no one would read it ) By the way, Argelios, I still don't think SS1 Bra should be below Goku and Vegeta. Or that she should be on the right side of the > and they aren't.
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